38 Special +P FBI load - yesterday same as today ?

[Nevada Ed]

My "NEW" Lyman shows 6.7grs of HS-6 at only 16,200 cup.

Some state a +P is around 18,500 cup but as mentioned different powders have different pressures.

889 fps !! Heck, some sites state they only get 800 to 840 fps out of their snub nose with the Remington +P ammo.

Just goes to show that every gun and load is different........

 

[TheTinMan]

If we are talking about duplicating the FBI Load I did a lot of development work on it a few years back. I found a good charge of HS-6 along with a magnum primer and a Hornady 158gr LSWC/HP bullet makes a very good replica load. I won't post the charge weight here because it's above all "Current" load manuals but the load has been estimated @ 19,800 psi, just below the 20,000 psi limits. shot next to the Remington and Federal FBI Load offerings it does feel the same although we all know that's really not a true test of pressure. That load generates 889 fps in my tests from a 2" J frame. (so it is on the "warm" side) Accuracy is very good and so are the SD numbers.

Here's the load:
Winchester .38 Special +P case
158gr Hornady LSWC/HP
CCI 550 Primer (Magnum primer on this load)
x.0gr HS-6
COL 1.475"
4" M686 ---- 2" M640
927.0 -- AV --- 888.9
955.1 --- H --- 897.1
905.4 --- L --- 876.6
49.7 ---- ES --- 20.5
20.7 ---- SD ---- 7.9
17.0 ---- AD ---- 5.9

Hope this helps and be careful when working up to the MAX. Here is a hint, it's higher than 6.8gr HS-6 but not as high as 7.2gr HS-6. Just remember, blame no one but yourself if something goes wrong. Current data doesn't not exceed 6.7gr but those loads are also marked as standard pressure loads, not a +P load. (Lyman Cast Handbook 3rd and 4th Editions)

The Hornady manual specifically recommends 800 fps with their swaged lead bullets, including the 158gr LSWC-HP. I wouldn't worry about leading for self-defense purposes but would not want to push the Hornady bullets this fast because of leading problems.

Buffalo Bore uses a harder lead bullet in their 38 Special +P loads.

 

[cjw3]

From the Lyman 45th Edition, I tried the following loads. I won't include the charge weights since they are above what is commonly recommended today, but there were no signs of excessive pressure whatsoever. These were all tested within the last two years.

#1
Gun: Model 36 RB, 2"
Load: x.x/Unique+158 grain SWC+CCI500
AV: 893.6
ES: 112.6
SD: 32.32

#2
Gun: M&P, 4"
Load: x.x/Unique+158 grain SWC+CCI500
AV: 997.3
ES: 60.79
SD: 20.56

#3
Gun: Model 36 RB, 2"
Load: x.x/Unique+154 grain SWCHP (358156)+CCI500
AV: 902.3
ES: 82.31
SD: 21.90

#4
Gun: M&P,4"
Load: x,x/Unique+154 grain SWCHP(358156)+CCI500
AV: 1008
ES: 50.73
SD: 19.62

#5
Gun: Model 15,4"
Load: x.x/Unique+154 grain SWCHP(358156)+CCI500
AV: 883.8
ES: 54.51
SD: 22.60

#6
Gun: Model 15,4"
Load: x.x/2400 + 154 grain SWCHP (358156)+CCI500
AV: 889
ES: 23.79
SD: 10.81

#7
Gun: Heavy Duty, 5"
Load: x.x/2400+158 LSWC+CCI500
AV: 1120
ES: Not recorded
SD: Not recorded
NOTES: Good load; hits to point of aim at 25 yards. Empty cases fall from the chambers.

NOTE: All charge weights with Unique were the same. The 2400 charge weight of #7 was one grain higher than that of #6. There is still easily room to step up that load for the HD, but that's good enough. This charge of Unique has been a favorite of mine for over 30 years; it will still deliver the goods when such power is wanted from a .38 Special.

The "+P" loads from the big makers are just a shadow of what they used to be. A few old reloaders and outfits like Buffalo Bore apparently are the only folks who realize the capabilities of some of these "old" cartridges.

 

[chief38]

I have always carried a .38 Spl. as my CCW gun and have made it a point to personally test the bullets I carry in it. I have posted the results here a few times but here is what my actual Chronograph numbers look like out of my 2" S&W M60-7.............

Rem & Win Std. Vel. 158 grain LSWC ------ barely broke 700 fps
Rem, Fed, Win +P 158 grain LSWCHP------ high 700;s - low 800's
Speer Gold Dot 135 grain (short bbl.) +P JHP ------ around 860 fps
Buffalo Bore Std. Vel. 158 grain LSWCHP --------- around 880
Buffalo Bore +P 158 grain LSWCHP-GC ----------- 1025 - 1040 fps.

I have done a lot more than just one testing of these loads and can honestly say that the velocities quoted by Remington, Winchester & Federal on their FBI loads are Hog wash, ESPECIALLY out of a 2" gun! Buffalo Bore's claims are spot on, and Speer's is pretty close too.

Over the last 4 years or so I have been carrying the Buffalo Bore +P 158 grain LSWCHP-GC and yes it is a handful in a 19 ounce 2" revolver with small grips. That said, practice with said loads makes it at least do-able and feasible to be shot effectively. Unless you practice often and shoot this load occasionally to become familiar and sort of comfortable with it, I would say most people are much better off with the Speer Gold Dots. They are still very effective, much easier to shoot accurately, and generate much less felt recoil. That is usually the load I recommend to a Newbie.

I will however say this about the BB +P. It is extremely accurate, the most consistent of all the loads mentioned above, and literally turns your 2" 38 special into a low end .357 Magnum. You just need to be a lot more disciplined when it comes to practicing often with this load.

The thing I dislike about the Speer Gold Dot is that IMHO penetration is marginal at best. The "experts" tout that 11 - 12 inches is the minimum penetration needed, and while the load does consistently do that in pure ballistic gelatin, there are no bones, muscle, tendons, cartilage or clothing in it when tested. The Buffalo Bore +P will penetrate 18+ inches through the same gelatin and so in my own mind that BB is the better load if one can shoot it accurately and rapidly, but if not, the Gold Dot might be the ticket in a 2" snub.

Chief38

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The Hornady manual specifically recommends 800 fps with their swaged lead bullets, including the 158gr LSWC-HP. I wouldn't worry about leading for self-defense purposes but would not want to push the Hornady bullets this fast because of leading problems.

Buffalo Bore uses a harder lead bullet in their 38 Special +P loads.

Actually it's the direct opposite, the lead used in the BB load is very soft, @5 BHN. BB is using a very soft gas checked bullet made by Rim Rock Bullets. Research is a wonderful thing.

As for the Hornady bullet you can think what you like. I know they did not lead in my revolvers at the velocities I listed in my post. I have no reason to lie about anything.

 

[Skip Sackett]

"THE LOAD!"
158gr LSWC @ 1100fps from a 3" M60 -13.
AND, I can make them over and over and over and over and over and over and .........

I can even make them with other bullets. Really neat ones! Like these:

 

[harley46580]

Skip, what are those they look awesome?

 

[Skip Sackett]

Hand crafted, custom ammunition, from a "boutique" loader, ME!

The bullets are from a mould I have. It is a Modern Bond 2 cavity mould numbered: #D-358582.

Not too many of them around anymore. I got mine as a gift from the wife. She went on ebay and got it because she thought it was cool and mistook it for an H&G.

That's okay, she wanted to get me a mould that would be cool. She scored on that part!

 

[Pointshoot]

What a fantastic lady you have there Skip !

 

[Bucky2]

38 Special +P

REGARDING THE VELOCITY OF THE PRE-38 +p, I did some gel testing for a large Midwest PD in the early 80's. Some of the rounds tested were the original WW 38 SPD, at the time this load was listed as 1090 or 1060 FPS from a 6" barrel.

They chrono's 1000 FPS out of a 4" Ruger Security Six.

FYI

 

[Nevada Ed]

In a way, I am happy they dropped the velosity over the 30 years of that load, because I sure would hate to shot that monster in a "Airweight " J frame !!

920-950 fps...................no thank you.

 

[LuckySavage]

Gentlemen-

I put together some of the "Duplicating the Buffalo Bore FBI Loads" today (so I could try out my new chrony). Also tried them on a makeshift "backstop" comprised of 2- 5 gal. pails of water, in line, with the first having my old Carhartt zipped up around it. What a riot!
BTW, the BB loads came in at +/- 1025 fps. out of my 3" SP101. No significant difference in FPS out of my 2" 640 stainless either. Only thing that bothered me was the LSWCHP expansion. I had hoped for more.

 

[tappedandtagged]

Not 100% on topic, but still a good read on Remington's 158 LHP current offering. Pocket Guns and Gear: Remington 38 Special +P 158 Grain LHP Clear Gel Test

 

[hotrod150]

Keep in mind that most handloading mauals show velocities out of a 4" or 6" barrel. My old "Shooting Crony" wouldn't work properly when I went to chronograph my 38 spl loads a while back, but I figure with my 2" barrels I'm gonna get at least 100 fps less than what my old Speer #10 manual shows for a 6 incher.

 

[Forrest r]

Well these FBI load threads come up all the time & there's some people on this forum that have explored different powder/load/bullet combos to try to duplicate this load.

I haven't done any testing myself because I don't own a 4" bbl'd 38/357 anymore. I do have a 6" bbl'd revolver & a 10" bbl for a contender. At least I could do some test loads with them over a chronograph to see what kinds of velocities I could come up with by using Herco & a 158gr lswc bullet.

Why Herco? Because in post #6 of this thread there's a link to an earlier thread on this very topic. It has a lot of very useful information along with a picture of the bb powder & the weight of their powder charge (7.5gr).

Every time I look at the picture of the powder that bb used it reminds me of Herco powder. Herco has the same rough black flat grains of powder in it along with lesser amounts of a smooth flat grained powder just like in the picture that Hoptob posted back in 2009. Herco has smaller grains of powder (.036") than 4765 but Herco & 4756 both have a burn rate that's very close to each other. The only reloading data I have for Herco & the 38spl p+ loads is on the wimpy side. So it won't bother me to pump up the volume a little bit by using the contender with the 357 bbl.

A picture of Herco.

Hoptob's picture from 2009.

 

[Cerberus62]

My "NEW" Lyman shows 6.7grs of HS-6 at only 16,200 cup.

Some state a +P is around 18,500 cup but as mentioned different powders have different pressures.

The pressure limit for the original 38 Special 158 grain load was 20,000 cup (from many sources), some others refer to 22,000.

SAAMI revised testing methods and measurements in the early '70s and then lowered max pressures again in the early '90s.

 

[Pointshoot]

Gentlemen-

I put together some of the "Duplicating the Buffalo Bore FBI Loads" today (so I could try out my new chrony). Also tried them on a makeshift "backstop" comprised of 2- 5 gal. pails of water, in line, with the first having my old Carhartt zipped up around it. What a riot!
BTW, the BB loads came in at +/- 1025 fps. out of my 3" SP101. No significant difference in FPS out of my 2" 640 stainless either. Only thing that bothered me was the LSWCHP expansion. I had hoped for more.

When you mentioned 'the BB loads came in at +/- 1025 fps' out of your 3" SP101, you were talking about your handloads, right ? What velocity did the actual Buffalo Bore brand ammo produce out of that gun ? I see that Buffalo Bore got 1143fps out of the 3in SP-101 that they have. Did you use the same brass and bullet as Buffalo Bore ? (I bet they sure cost you a lot less than the factory stuff !) Thanks for posting about this. I definitely want to do this too. Regards, - - -

 

[Pigirondan]

The standard pressure Buffalo Bore .38 Special 158 grain LSWC-HP duplicates the "old" FBI load, the +P exceeds it.

The Double Tap +P 158 grain SWC is a nice thumper too.

 

[ChuckS1]

"THE LOAD!"
158gr LSWC @ 1100fps from a 3" M60 -13.
AND, I can make them over and over and over and over and over and over and .........

I can even make them with other bullets. Really neat ones! Like these:

Skip, is that the "The Load" as in the Speer #8 "The Load"? I remember playing with that in my Outdoorsman. Never did get to the published minimum charge. At .2 grains below the published minimum my Remington primers began to pierce. It was fun, though. Very accurate, too.

 

[gunfan]

Skip, is that the "The Load" as in the Speer #8 "The Load"? I remember playing with that in my Outdoorsman. Never did get to the published minimum charge. At .2 grains below the published minimum my Remington primers began to pierce. It was fun, though. Very accurate, too.

That "load" is the "original" FBI load. The most effective .38 Special load to date. IMHO, this particular load would be what I would want to carry in the .38 S&W Special...ANY .38 S&W Special when "push comes to shove."

Scott