38 vs 357 - risk factors

[petepeterson]

I'm waiting a bit, hoping to trade up to the S&W 640 when a real estate sale closes on the 24th. In the meantime, I found this today - Most Versatile Handgun: The .38 Special, .38 Special +P and .357 Magnum Revolver
which echoes many of the things we've discussed here. I particularly like the part about bears - they wander into Seattle suburbs from time to time. So it looks like there's a lot of versatility in the 357, depending on the load and the situation.

If a bear wanders into your neighborhood and you have a .357, try to wander into your house and use 911. If you search really hard on this forum, you might find a thread or two about handguns and bears.

 

[t0073]

After much deliberation between me, myself, and I, and with great appreciation for all the excellent input from your honored selves, I went and ordered the S&W 640 this morning. For me, versatility won out in the end. As soon as it comes in, I will head for the range, and open a new thread on impressions with different loads. Thank you very much!

 

[BE Mike]

Politely, but since you're insisting, nope, it's a lot more than a "nice idea" -- knowing whether or not you have a safe shot is fundamental to firearms handling and situational awareness, and isn't just applicable to real world use, it's critical to it.

We'll have to agree to disagree. In a gunfight, you don't get to choose the place or time. When it's a me or him scenario, you must shoot.

 

[oldtexan]

In all all steel j frame that can handle .38 +P, I prefer one of the various .38+P loads that meet FBI standards for penetration and expansion( Speer Short Barrel +P 135 gr Gold Dot, Win Ranger 130 gr, CorBon DPX +P 110 gr, etc). Most other +P, and almost all std pressure .38 loads will simply fail to offer adequate penetration and expansion out of a 2" barrel.

I do not load any .357 in either of our j frames rated for that cartridge (649 and a 640), because of the increased muzzle flash, recovery time between shots, etc. For me, in a short barreled gun, the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

Here's some good info from Dr Gary K. Roberts, an expert on terminal ballistics, on .38 loads: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4336-BUG-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp

 

[Hapworth]

We'll have to agree to disagree. In a gunfight, you don't get to choose the place or time. When it's a me or him scenario, you must shoot.

Except this discussion wasn't simply about "me or him", but also -- and particularly -- "them", bystanders.

No time, you say.

Agree to disagree, indeed.

 

[pittpa]

A proper 158 grain 357 hollowpoint will be fine. It will have very little energy left if it even exits the bad guy. You're more likely to miss altogether which is bigger danger to bystanders. In any case I'm happy with 38 special. Penetrates and expands fine and same size bullets

Couple of thoughts. I believe someone here posted that they carry 38 and the last one a 357. I thought, what a great way to know you're empty! Not sure how apparent it would be to the shooter though.
With regard to bystanders, a local felon with a gun fought off a home invader, killing his own girl friend and her brother in the process. The local DA is not prosecuting the murders, feeling the guy acted reasonably under the circumstances. The outcome of "felon with gun" is a different story. Not sure who owned it at this point.

 

[caleb4387]

I am very grateful for all of you and your excellent information. Trying to reconcile all this, I visited my local gun shop this morning and met a new sales gal who happened to be fond of 357. In keeping with statements above, she seemed to suggest that grains in the 125 range might be better for daily carry, but something in the 158 range might be better in the woods. Agree?

I carry 158

 

[mikesal34744]

It would have to be a pretty old video that suggests HP's won't expand out of a snubby. The only MARGINAL performance I've ever seen with a name-brand 125HP at a muzzle velocity of 800 fps was with Federal Hyrashoks and Winchester Silvertips. Both of those makers now market 38+P hollowpoints (and/or ballistic tips) that give stellar expansion from a 2" barrel.... as well as Remington, Hornady, Speer , et al.

There was a time when trying to get expansion from a snubby was a real challenge; now I'd be happy with a half dozen different offerings.

Just for instance...

Is this SVR Mike Campbell?

 

[Dennis The B]

Except this discussion wasn't simply about "me or him", but also -- and particularly -- "them", bystanders.

No time, you say.

Agree to disagree, indeed.

When it comes down to you or the bad guy, choose yourself; spectators and bystanders be d*****.

When I went through Jr. ROTC, we had several crusty old MSGT's who had real world combat experience in WWII and Korea. In the field manuals you're taught to use the bayonet when up close, since your buddy could be hit if you fired your rifle in close quarters. To a man, they all told us to forget the field manual - Shoot as long as you have ammo. Your buddy has to take care of himself.

 

[t0073]

Despite what the gal at the store said in favor of Glaser, I found this which seems to argue in the other direction -https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336409

 

[Ducky2002]

When I was in Basic a recruit asked the DI why use a bayonet? Why not just shoot him? DI replied, "Son, if we have one round of ammo left between us we will not be using bayonets."

 

[BE Mike]

Except this discussion wasn't simply about "me or him", but also -- and particularly -- "them", bystanders.

No time, you say.

Agree to disagree, indeed.

...and if you neutralize the criminal, you don't have to worry about him hitting innocent bystanders.

 

[Hapworth]

...and if you neutralize the criminal, you don't have to worry about him hitting innocent bystanders.

...and the wheels on the bus go 'round and 'round.

 

[t0073]

My 640 is on wait list - S&W says they are selling out as fast as they make them. Two questions, please, while I wait: As an example, Two Federal JHP's, one 125 gr, 1440 MV, 575 ME, the other 158gr, 1240 MV, 539 ME. Which if better? If the 125, why is the lower grain better? Thank you!

 

[rwsmith]

Two more things....

recovery after a shot - A big charge out of a small gun is likely to knock your arm way out of line and to get back on target and in focus would be tough. Don't use anything bigger than you can recover quickly from.

Downloaded .357 - I used really low end .357s in case I'm in my house (blast) and I can recover quickly.

 

[Hapworth]

My 640 is on wait list - S&W says they are selling out as fast as they make them. Two questions, please, while I wait: As an example, Two Federal JHP's, one 125 gr, 1440 MV, 575 ME, the other 158gr, 1240 MV, 539 ME. Which if better? If the 125, why is the lower grain better? Thank you!

Out of a short barrel like the 640, the 125 grain's increased velocity will increase the odds of expansion; if these are your only to choices, it's the one I'd opt for.

Trouble is, both of these rounds are going to kick like mules in a J-frame, are Federal's older JHP designs, and neither is optimized for short barrels.

There are better choices in .357 and .38 for a 640.

 

[t0073]

There are better choices in .357 and .38 for a 640.

What would those be, kind Sir? Thanks, h

 

[Hapworth]

What would those be, kind Sir? Thanks, h

I personally like Remington Golden Saber, Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel, and CorBon DPX; honorable mention to Hornady's Critical Duty and Critical Defense.

The song remains the same.

 

[Damol]

Yes, Glaser. Pardon my newbieness, who are the big 3? Thanks!

Remington, Winchester, Federal. Sorry it took me so long.

 

[Groo01]

Groo here
Much talk about ,Hits verses misses,pass through,fast followups,
control,flash,expand or no, etc.
These are all nice to talk about but mean little.
! You will shoot as you have trained !!!!!!! [no matter if you train with a 22 and use a 44] we are programed that way ,when the poopy
hits the fan, you go to into auto.
2 Front sight will only be seen IF you have trained A BUNCH.
Here again we are wired to see the attacker [ never been attacked by my front sight]
3 Time will slow down , Brain goes into turbo .
Not strange to hear, I shot but he just didn't go down, Reason
He did not have TIME to go down.
Best advice, Train as you will want to react.
Carry the gun you shoot the best. [only hits count]
Carry the most powerful handgun you can handle
in style you will be carrying [Small-ccw larger open]
And Remember " He who hits first usually wins.
So make the first one count."