38 wadcutters

[Lou_the_welder]

Hello everyone!

I was just making some 38 special 148gr wadcutters yesterday and noticed I was wrinkling a few cases. At first, I wrinkled 3 cases out of 50. But then I made 50 more and wrinkled a few more cases than I wanted . Maybe 8 or so.

I tried readjusting my dies. Making sure at first, I wasn't adding too much of a crimp. That didn't seem to work. Then tried to not add as much height??
Book states they should be at 1.160". I left some at 1.180". In my experience, not too far off. Using 3.2g of w231 on a powder coated 148gr.

It's a great load! But my arms got a workout yesterday removing my decapper from my sizer! Next time if I do this, I'll just separate the pile of wrinkled cases and run em all at once.
I made 150 yesterday, so I'm tired today. Maybe I'll rest.

I didn't notice I had this problem when using Barry's 148gr DEWC. This is something that just started happening when I switched to the 148gr powder coated ones. .358" dia. Also.

Should I just get used to sizing them after?! Or am I missing something??
What do you all think?

Lou

 

[robertrwalsh]

Probably too much crimp. You want the bullet seated right at or just a teeny tiny tad below the mouth of the case and just enough crimp to roll the edge in slightly. (Makes loading into the cylinder easier. Some people use strictly a taper crimp.) It helps a lot of the case length is pretty close for all of your cases. I shoot a fair amount of the Berry's copper plated and very few lead WC any more. A lot cleaner and the cost difference in almost nothing.

 

[Major 2]

I set my SBWC's about 1/16" proud of my case and light crimp.
My Powder is Titegroup.
I size my brass on the de-prime stroke and flair on the through the die powder
stroke. Seat the WC then crimp on the factory crimp die.
I use a Lee Turret press & Lee Dies, But I advance by hand (I removed the auto advance rod)
The 148 G. SBWC are my range rounds and load Berry's plated 148's for carry.

 

[M5741]

Here lately, i've been loading Hornady 148 grain hbwc for my Colt OMT revolver. I use the same powder charge as Lou_the_welder, but with HP-38 (same powder) different name. These Hornady wadcutters are knurled, then some sort of lube, and then dusted with mica powder. No problem with wrinkled cases. What I did notice, was there was quite a bit of difference in seating force needed to seat the wc's in different brands of cases. Some seat real easy, and some need noticably more force to seat. The case wall thickness is different in some cases. It only takes .001 thicker wall to make a .002 tighter inside diameter. I realize the expander sizes the inside of the case, but there is spring back. I seat the wc just below the case mouth. I crimp the case mouth separately, after seating the wc.
Maybe, the few cases that wrinkled on you were a little long? Maybe the seating head hit the top of the case when seating the wc? Make sure the bell in the case mouth is enough to allow the seating head to fit inside the bell. Make sure the seater head is not oversize to go inside the belled case when seating the wc. It is probably the correct size, or it would wrinkle more of your cases. If you have short cases, they will not be belled as much as the proper length cases.

 

[Lou_the_welder]

Probably too much crimp. You want the bullet seated right at or just a teeny tiny tad below the mouth of the case and just enough crimp to roll the edge in slightly. (Makes loading into the cylinder easier. Some people use strictly a taper crimp.) It helps a lot of the case length is pretty close for all of your cases. I shoot a fair amount of the Berry's copper plated and very few lead WC any more. A lot cleaner and the cost difference in almost nothing.

At first, past experiences did make me assume it was too much crimp like you said. I tried making the seating die taller for less of a crimp and after readjusting depth height, still wrinkled some cases. I did not have this problem running the 148gr DEWC plated bullets.

I set my SBWC's about 1/16" proud of my case and light crimp.
My Powder is Titegroup.
I size my brass on the de-prime stroke and flair on the through the die powder
stroke. Seat the WC then crimp on the factory crimp die.
I use a Lee Turret press & Lee Dies, But I advance by hand (I removed the auto advance rod)
The 148 G. SBWC are my range rounds and load Berry's plated 148's for carry.

The tall 1.180" ones do have maybe about 1/16 th of an inch poking there heads out. Also, I'm using 38 special lee carbide dies. I don't know if that makes a difference. Wouldn't I have to run plated ones at 3.5g with w231/ hp38 ? I've wanted to run the 3.2g with the lead PC. They seem to pop about the same. No chrono taken at this time.
Titegroup is one of my favourites. The reason I didn't try them with Titegroup is that I don't have a disk small enough to use for my powder dispenser. I believe whats called for is a .27cc disk size. I use the .32cc disk size for the w231- having a .30disk size and up only.

Here lately, i've been loading Hornady 148 grain hbwc for my Colt OMT revolver. I use the same powder charge as Lou_the_welder, but with HP-38 (same powder) different name. These Hornady wadcutters are knurled, then some sort of lube, and then dusted with mica powder. No problem with wrinkled cases. What I did notice, was there was quite a bit of difference in seating force needed to seat the wc's in different brands of cases. Some seat real easy, and some need noticably more force to seat. The case wall thickness is different in some cases. It only takes .001 thicker wall to make a .002 tighter inside diameter. I realize the expander sizes the inside of the case, but there is spring back. I seat the wc just below the case mouth. I crimp the case mouth separately, after seating the wc.
Maybe, the few cases that wrinkled on you were a little long? Maybe the seating head hit the top of the case when seating the wc? Make sure the bell in the case mouth is enough to allow the seating head to fit inside the bell. Make sure the seater head is not oversize to go inside the belled case when seating the wc. It is probably the correct size, or it would wrinkle more of your cases. If you have short cases, they will not be belled as much as the proper length cases.

Maybe too the internal wall thickness??
Maybe I should be asking what cases are more suitable for wadcutters using .358" dia?

 

[Alk8944]

1. Flair/bell your cases a bit more

2. Seat bullet then crimp in separate operations.

Any .38 Special brass is suitable for loading wad-cutter bullets, or any other style, sized to .357 to .359".

 

[Huskerguy]

I guess I have to ask some more questions, I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Where are the wrinkles? Case mouth or part way down the case?
Are you belling the case enough to allow the bullet to go straight down?
Do you have the correct punch for seating the bullet that takes it straight down?

Yes, setting the crimp die too deep could cause some of the same problems especially given different lengths of brass. You also mentioned your arm being tired, something is working you too hard.

My theory is always try fixing one thing at a time, maybe start with less or even no crimp and then start adding it back in. Then look at some other areas I asked about.

I pour my own 148's with an ideal mold and crimp solidly, using 2.7 grains of TG powder. Accurate little bugger.

 

[Lou_the_welder]

1. Flair/bell your cases a bit more

2. Seat bullet then crimp in separate operations.

Any .38 Special brass is suitable for loading wad-cutter bullets, or any other style, sized to .357 to .359".

I'll try and load some in a bit. I'll see if I can screw the expander in a bit to bell the cases.
Unfortunately, my lee crimp die also seats the bullet. I've been straightening the cases out by running em in the sizer again and that flatens the waves out. I know. It's not ideal.

 

[Lou_the_welder]

I guess I have to ask some more questions, I am no the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Where are the wrinkles? Case mouth or part way down the case?
Are you belling the case enough to allow the bullet to go straight down?
Do you have the correct punch for seating the bullet that takes it straight down?

Yes, setting the crimp die too deep could cause some of the same problems especially given different lengths of brass. You also mentioned your arm being tired, something is working you too hard.

My theory is always try fixing one thing at a time, maybe start with less or even no crimp and then start adding it back in. Then look at some other areas I asked about.

I pour my own 148's with an ideal mold and crimp solidly, using 2.7 grains of TG powder. Accurate little bugger.

The wrinkles were halfway and below the bullet. And won't chamber.
I'll check the length of brass.
By screwing the seater out, I takeaway the crimp. Pretty much had loaded the last batch , with barely a crimp.

 

[Forrest r]

Something is collapsing the case wall. It's either the lee expander isn't expanding the case deep enough (they are notoriously short). Or the bullet is being crimped in place and the seating die is still trying to seat the bullet deeper.

Back the seating die off so it can't crimp the bullet. Then adjust the seating stem so it seats the bullet to the correct oal.

If the bullet seats to the correct oal and the cases wrinkle/buckle without crimping the case. Then the expander die (button) isn't expanding deep enough.

If the cases quit wrinkling/buckling with the bullet seated to the correct oal. Then the crimp wasn't adjusted correctly.

 

[Tim357]

My 2 cents. I believe your carbide dies are sizing the cases too small. Have you tried seating a bullet in an unsized case? How thick is your powder coat? Have you mic'd a pulled bullet? There is a lot of bearing surface on a WC bullet. Are they being seated straight in the case on the wrinkled ones? Have you tried seating first without crimping? I learned a long time ago to seat and crimp in separate operations.

 

[TJm15.38]

I've had some similar problems with Missouri 148 Grain DEWC bevel based wadcutters. I was probably trying for too much crimp, but I also got rid of all the soft PMC brass which proved problematic for wadcutters.

 

[kadams]

If you hav'nt trimmed your brass uniform length it could be why some of your cases are getting too much crimp, I have not loaded any 38/357 lately but I did get a set of NOE custom expanders for the lee universal case expander die after having the same issue you are having. I also purchased custom expanders for .44 and 45/70 sized .003 over cast bullet size and they have made my life much easier loading .44 and 45/70.

 

[Lou_the_welder]

I grabbed a pmc and it wrinkled it again.

Well, I ( we) figured it out. Opening up the cases more helped in the insertion and crimping the bullet. Although it helped, it was still wrinkling the cases. It did it also on some Aguila that I have.

Working backwards forwards, I decided to turn in the bullet seater, making a harder crimp. That was it.
The way I'm thinking that it works was that the die itself was not deep enough to crimp the sides and the tip of the bullet. I found that out through Alk8944's suggestion the bell the case mouths more. Well, I did a few of those and noticed the bullets were still too wide at the tip. Meaning, the die was just compressing the bullet and not enough surrounding the bullet to resize it again.

So that was it. Thanks to all who took the time.

 

[M5741]

Good to hear all turned out well.

 

[rwsmith]

I set my SBWC's about 1/16" proud of my case and light crimp.
My Powder is Titegroup.
I size my brass on the de-prime stroke and flair on the through the die powder
stroke. Seat the WC then crimp on the factory crimp die.
I use a Lee Turret press & Lee Dies, But I advance by hand (I removed the auto advance rod)
The 148 G. SBWC are my range rounds and load Berry's plated 148's for carry.

I don't think it hurts to leave them out a little. The Missouri Bullets I use have a groove near the top and I seat them there. Any difference in accuracy could be easily tested. I don't notice any, but then I'm not that great of a pistol shot.

 

[MP-5]

Did anyone say wadcutters?

 

[SASFixer]

Hello everyone!

I was just making some 38 special 148gr wadcutters yesterday and noticed I was wrinkling a few cases. At first, I wrinkled 3 cases out of 50. But then I made 50 more and wrinkled a few more cases than I wanted . Maybe 8 or so.

I tried readjusting my dies. Making sure at first, I wasn't adding too much of a crimp. That didn't seem to work. Then tried to not add as much height??
Book states they should be at 1.160". I left some at 1.180". In my experience, not too far off. Using 3.2g of w231 on a powder coated 148gr.

It's a great load! But my arms got a workout yesterday removing my decapper from my sizer! Next time if I do this, I'll just separate the pile of wrinkled cases and run em all at once.
I made 150 yesterday, so I'm tired today. Maybe I'll rest.

I didn't notice I had this problem when using Barry's 148gr DEWC. This is something that just started happening when I switched to the 148gr powder coated ones. .358" dia. Also.

Should I just get used to sizing them after?! Or am I missing something??
What do you all think?

Lou

First I would separate my cases by length and manufacturer. Doing this will eliminate variables. Trim the long cases to spec. Resizing finished rounds reduces the diameter of the projectile too.

 

[skipperjb777]

I've not had any wrinkling issues with 38 wadcutters, but have had with 380. I am currently using a RCBS turret press, though I have also used the Lyman 8 stage turret press. I have ended up using a combination of Lee and RCBS dies. I do this for the calibers I load regularly - 380 9mm (147 only), 38 wadcutter - both 148 and 158 semis. With the 380 loads I have settled on a routine of using the Lee de-capping and resizing die on my RCBS Rebel press. I would prefer to use the RCBS resizer and de-capping die, but for some reason the de-capping tip breaks off too often to make it reliable for the process. I then seat the primer, expand the case using the Lee expanding die and adding the powder at that stage, then complete the process by seating the round with the RCBS seating die and crimp with the Lee factory crimping die. This process take a bit longer, but I haven't had any wrinkling issues since I started using it. I use the RCBS roller crimp die for the 38 wadcutters, but the process is the same as for the 380s. For 38 wadcutters I've been using 2.7 grains of Bullseye, but i guess i'm going to have look at another powder when my current supply is used up-got a hungry S&W model 52 to feed.

 

[davenelson]

I set my SBWC's about 1/16" proud of my case and light crimp.
My Powder is Titegroup.
I size my brass on the de-prime stroke and flair on the through the die powder
stroke. Seat the WC then crimp on the factory crimp die.
I use a Lee Turret press & Lee Dies, But I advance by hand (I removed the auto advance rod)
The 148 G. SBWC are my range rounds and load Berry's plated 148's for carry.

This is also the process I use with Hi-Tek coated DEWC, I leave the bullet peaking out a little more than a fingernail.