3rd Gen parts - I'm afraid we're on our own Gents

[Fastbolt]

Although I've been a 3rd gen pistol armorer since the 90's, it's not all that often that I have to dip into my parts collection to repair guns. When I have, it's typically been because someone has fiddled with a gun and damaged something (damaging a sideplate while installing factory grips incorrectly), or abused the gun in some manner (repeatedly loading the chamber directly instead of from a magazine, or letting it be submerged in water without reporting it for more than a year, etc ).

I've had a small number of instances where a part was unknowingly defective, or had been produced at the wrong end of some tolerance spec & stack combination.

I've even had some guns require attention and parts replacement after having seen 10-20 years of heavy use (and neglect), and having been used to fire more than 10-12K+ or more rounds.

Even some of the older revisions of some parts have sometimes resulted in the need for a replacement part at some point after years of use (ejectors are an example).

However, that's taking into consideration that I've helped support a few hundred early 3rd gen's which remained in-service for close to 20 years, and then their replacements (TSW's) for several years. In the greater picture, not much in the way of spare parts have really been required, overall.

It's amazing how well the 3rd gen guns can withstand normal usage if simply cleaned & lubricated properly, on a reasonably periodic basis, and then given fresh recoil and mag springs (without waiting for them to demonstrate signs that they've become significantly weakened or worn out ).

Yes, the use of the hotter loads in each caliber can accelerate the expected wear & tear ... but that's one of those TANSTAAFL considerations, folks.

 

[kbm6893]

At the very least, S&W should issue a statement on their website stating they will no longer be honoring their "lifetime warranty". That is completely unacceptable.

 

[dkelly27]

I for one, will never again buy a S&W handgun or anything else they sell.
If they want to treat their customers like this, then i'll buy some other make.

 

[MR.G]

Lifetime Warranty? I won't be buying another S&W semi-auto.

 

[timn8er]

I for one, will never again buy a S&W handgun or anything else they sell.
If they want to treat their customers like this, then i'll buy some other make.

Lifetime Warranty? I won't be buying another S&W semi-auto.

I've got to say I'm leaning in the same direction as you guys. So much seems to be going wrong that its hard to stay positive. I'm so hooked on 3rd Gens though it'll be a hard habit to break.

 

[4506517]

I hate to say it, but I've given up. I own 20+ 3rd gennies, but I think I'm good. Carried a 4566 for a few years, but I'm done.

I have well documented the problems my agency has had with the M&P full size 45. Found out last week our entire inventory of M&Ps will be replaced AGAIN. If you recall we have already done this twice. This will be my third pistol, for some of my buddies this will be their fourth. For a few this will be their fifth.

Smith no longer produces quality products. They have focused solely on profit margins. I understand that's what a company is supposed to do. My first career was business management. However, it is important how you handle customer relations. Smith has decided to write the 3rd gennies off......okay. A worthwhile company would make some type of public acknowledgment that was the case. Even Microsoft publicly states when they stop supporting older versions of Windows™ and they are perhaps one of the most profitable corporations in existence.

I don't want to argue about why Smith doesn't produce the 3rd gennies anymore. I'm really tired of hearing the excuses made for them. They produce revolvers and 1911 pistols.....all steel framed. The simplest answer is they just don't want to. Better companies than Smith have failed and gone bankrupt because they didn't pay attention. Ask Colt how successful/profitable depending on govt contracts is/was.

I am done with Smith. They will get what's coming to them.

 

[Arik]

Because of lack of parts I have been slowly selling off my 3rd gens. I don't collect so they all get used and I can't use em if I can't fix em.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

 

[BMCM]

Stay tuned fellas.... There's a scheme afoot to brew up a batch of those nested spring sets. You know, the 108660000 & 10867000 springs. And we'll need your help to get an idea of what the demand is going to look like. Remember those springs are spec'd in some 14 or so different models.

So don't get discouraged fellas, I'm certainly not. I will keep my little collection running irregardless even if I have to whittle my own parts out of chunks of scrap steel. And if I see another 45xx that strikes my fancy I wont hesitate to snatch it up. (assuming I can come up with the scratch) Frankly, I don't care what S&W does.

This whole deal with parts support, it's really no different than expecting a local Dodge dealer to have parts for a 1970 Plymouth Roadrunner GTX with a 4 speed manual, Dana 60 rear & a 440/sixpack under the hood . There aint a Dodge dealer on the planet has parts for that car but, the aftermarket sure has if covered

Look, manufacturers move on and the market changes. What we have to do now is show some reputable aftermarket producers that there's a healthy demand for consumables to keep these fine guns running.

So you folks with guns that spec the nested springs, think about how many sets you'd want to start with.... There's liable to be a datacall soon.

Now what I want to know is who is the subcontractor who made the mag followers and where are/who has the molds.

Cheers
Bill

 

[03Fatboy]

BMCM has it right. Let's find out who has the molds and who was making them for S&W. Making the simple replaceable followers, mag springs, extractors etc shouldn't be a big deal for the aftermarket consumers that the + 1 Million 3rd Gen owners there are. Who knows how many total are out there but it is significant.

It's a slap in the face by S&W that is a tough pill for us all loyal to swallow. I'm coming to grips with this now but I'm also not getting to excited as Fastbolt mentioned. When I need a part is typically because i made a mistake. Other than that, mine just keep running besides the typical consumables that we need someone to step up on. If the after market turns it's back on us I will sell them and never buy another smith semi auto again.

Hello Other All Steel Manufacturers.

I still don't understand why Smith thinks they cannot honor a Lifetime Warranty because they don't have replacement parts. That is not my problem and part of the reason we all bought them. Shaaaaadddddyy......or Fraudulent?

 

[USNPJS]

Well, it looks like Wolf makes he bigger springs for these, good chance they may step up in S&W stops making the smaller ones. Metal parts may be harder to come by....

One way or another it will work itself out. If there's money to be made, someone will make it!

 

[kbm6893]

Stay tuned fellas.... There's a scheme afoot to brew up a batch of those nested spring sets. You know, the 108660000 & 10867000 springs. And we'll need your help to get an idea of what the demand is going to look like. Remember those springs are spec'd in some 14 or so different models.

So don't get discouraged fellas, I'm certainly not. I will keep my little collection running irregardless even if I have to whittle my own parts out of chunks of scrap steel. And if I see another 45xx that strikes my fancy I wont hesitate to snatch it up. (assuming I can come up with the scratch) Frankly, I don't care what S&W does.

This whole deal with parts support, it's really no different than expecting a local Dodge dealer to have parts for a 1970 Plymouth Roadrunner GTX with a 4 speed manual, Dana 60 rear & a 440/sixpack under the hood . There aint a Dodge dealer on the planet has parts for that car but, the aftermarket sure has if covered

Look, manufacturers move on and the market changes. What we have to do now is show some reputable aftermarket producers that there's a healthy demand for consumables to keep these fine guns running.

So you folks with guns that spec the nested springs, think about how many sets you'd want to start with.... There's liable to be a datacall soon.

Now what I want to know is who is the subcontractor who made the mag followers and where are/who has the molds.

Cheers
Bill

Only problem with your analogy is Plymouth didn't promise their buyers of that 1970 Roadrunner a lifetime warranty. S&W did, and even IF a third party does step in and make the parts, the customer now has to pay for them, and that wasn't the deal

S&W is the only manufacturer that offers a semi auto with a hammer, mag disconnect, and a manual safety. The Hi Power kind of fits the bill, but they're even more expensive and also no longer made. We're not asking S&W to keep making the guns, but springs and small metal parts should continue to be made to honor the agreement they made with the customer

And I guess this policy goes to the older revolvers too? So if the hammer mounted firing pin on my model 65 breaks, I'm screwed right?

 

[Shorty 45 MK2]

I'd like to get at least two sets of the 108660000 & 10867000 springs.

On the bright side maybe the used market will have a lot more 3rd gens at good to really good prices.

 

[kbm6893]

Wolff still sells spring service packs for 3rd gen's, as well as mag springs. I just got a pack for my 6906 I bought used. But I'm talking about extractors, hammers, and pins.

 

[RobG5589]

I don't want to argue about why Smith doesn't produce the 3rd gennies anymore. I'm really tired of hearing the excuses made for them. They produce revolvers and 1911 pistols.....all steel framed. The simplest answer is they just don't want to. Better companies than Smith have failed and gone bankrupt because they didn't pay attention. Ask Colt how successful/profitable depending on govt contracts is/was.

I am done with Smith. They will get what's coming to them.

Agreed. Building a 4506 is no different than a 1911. But while many of us adore them, there are probably more "kids" these days looking for more "modern" polymer pistols.

Hopefully some manufacturer steps up to produce the more wearable parts.

 

[schneiderguy]

This whole deal with parts support, it's really no different than expecting a local Dodge dealer to have parts for a 1970 Plymouth Roadrunner GTX with a 4 speed manual, Dana 60 rear & a 440/sixpack under the hood . There aint a Dodge dealer on the planet has parts for that car but, the aftermarket sure has if covered

Except that it's been what, five years since they stopped selling the last of the third gen autos?

I sure would expect a local Dodge dealer to have parts for a 2009 model year car.

 

[Fastbolt]

I'd like to get at least two sets of the 108660000 & 10867000 springs.

I'm still back-ordered on those springs, and a couple other minor parts, myself.

FWIW, I've been told that there's still some apparent disagreement occurring within the company about the 3rd gen guns and their parts support.

Yes, they'd like to see them go away, and they may not order more than just enough spare parts to keep put aside for repair of original customer needs (which isn't as much as you might think, and most of the parts are inexpensive, being extractors, springs, plungers, sear release levers, etc).

They may, or may not, decide to continue selling much in the way of retail parts as time passes, and it'll remain to be seen if they continue to support other retailers who have to get their parts from S&W, after S&W gets them from their vendors. How much profit is S&W going to make on selling wholesale parts, though? That's probably a business decision that may be made for business reasons.

I've also been told that due to huge demand on resources the company has been essentially sitting on making large orders of 3rd gen repair parts. They've been spending that money on other projects and needs.

There are some 1st & 2nd gen pistol parts that the company just doesn't order or make-in-house anymore. Ditto for some older style revolvers. This is hardly a new business model.

There have been some parts discontinued for the original older line of 3rd gen guns, as well, and this wasn't really noticed, it seems, when it happened several years ago. For example, I was told several years ago that the barrels for the original style M4006 & M4566 guns aren't being ordered produced in-house anymore (and the TSW barrels aren't interchangeable in the standard 3rd gen guns due to the revisions and improvements made to the TSW's).

S&W has always supported its customers, although the expectations of some folks may be a bit less than realistic upon occasion.

I remember when a friend had an original 4013 (made on the .45 alloy frame) that developed a problem. It turned out the frame had become excessively worn at the barrel camming cuts. That's not something that can be repaired, nor did they have any "new" frames available for that model. He was offered his choice of a different model as a warranty replacement.

Another friend had a weird and very unusual crack appear at the front end of the dustcover (and rare, according to the tech with whom I spoke after I'd arranged for the gun to be returned for examination). It was an original 3913TSW. The company said that they no longer had any of the early style 3913TSW frames left in-stock, but offered to replace the gun under warranty with a new style 3913TSW (railed, no grip cutaway). That was fine with the owner. If it happened nowadays, and they didn't have any recent surplus LE production models tucked away in Houlton, I'm sure they'd offer him something else, like a M&P 9c or a Shield 9.

These sorts of complaints aren't limited to S&W, BTW. Other gun companies have started to decrease support and/or availability of parts for older models of some guns.

Just some thoughts.

 

[BMCM]

Only problem with your analogy is Plymouth didn't promise their buyers of that 1970 Roadrunner a lifetime warranty. S&W did, and even IF a third party does step in and make the parts, the customer now has to pay for them, and that wasn't the deal

I'm sorry, I'm afraid I just don't see it that way. I'm paraphrasing here but I read their warranty to cover defects in material and workmanship at no cost to the original owner for as long at that person owns the firearm. I read that to mean factory screwups that get past QC are remedied for free. And "remedy" doesn't mean your gun gets repaired either. I've read cases where an owner was offered to buy an "equivalent" current production gun because parts for their gun were no longer available. I don't see anything referring no cost replacement of wear items or consumables under warranty, in fact, normal wear and tear are specifically mentioned as not covered. Nor do I read anything regarding parts support in perpetuity. I do see where the warranty is granted NOT to the firearm but to the original owner and is not transferable thus all those second hand used guns out there (like every one of mine) have no warranty coverage at all.

Even so, how many times have we seen posts here and on other boards praising S&W when they've granted warranty service to guns that were clearly not covered.

Sure the Roadrunner had a warranty, only the Hemi-Cuda was sold sans warranty. Sounds to me like some folks around here are expecting free belts & tires for as long as their Roadrunner exists. Even if there was a "lifetime" warranty, what do you suppose might happen after sending the Roadrunner in for warranty repair. I wager Dodge would offer sale of a 2014 Dart at a discount in lieu of repair because the OEM parts supply dried up three decades ago. Ehh unlikely there's anyone there competent or qualified to work on that car anyway.

Look, I'm as disappointed as anyone by what appears to be S&W's move to drop parts support for these out of production models. However, in my experience, manufacturers in general typically maintain parts support for about 10 years post production. Then the supply of OEM parts starts to dry up and often times the aftermarket will pick up the slack. At what point does it become unreasonable to expect a manufacturer to continue parts support for out of production products? 10 years? 20years? 30? forever? I don't know.

As far as warranties/guarantees et al. in my opinion all that noise is nothing more than a marketing gimmick intended to increase market share. I know of many manufacturers who make top tier stuff and have no warranty and, if there's ever a problem they take care of it no question asked. I don't know, it kinda seems to me to have to write all that legal stuff down and call it a warranty to up your market share is rather disingenuous in my book. I do my due diligence and place more value on what I know of or can learn about the product than what papers come with it. Rarely if ever does a warranty have bearing on my purchasing decisions.

I look at it this way. A cheap piece of high profit margin plastic & pot metal rubbish with a lifetime warranty is still just a cheap piece of plastic & pot metal rubbish. And, if it breaks or blows up the remedy is you get a brand new shiny cheap piece of high profit margin plastic & pot metal rubbish. Aint that just grand!

No Thank You!
I am my own warranty station!

And I guess this policy goes to the older revolvers too? So if the hammer mounted firing pin on my model 65 breaks, I'm screwed right?

Of course it does however you're not screwed. Power Custom has you covered for a replacement hammer nose & rivet
HAMMER NOSE KITS FOR S&W | Brownells

You know, I didn't start this thread to argue the merits or lack thereof of S&W's warranty or corporate policy re: parts support. And I'm a little disappointed it has devolved in that direction. I merely wanted to share the outfits I knew of that had parts for these guns. Maybe I should have picked a different car for my analogy, that one just happens to be my favorite car. Sorry.

So, if you have knowledge of a parts source that hasn't already been mentioned feel free to post it. Or if you want help in finding a certain widget ask away, I may even have a spare widget laying about I'll send to you.

Otherwise, I'm done here.

Cheers
Bill

 

[Badkarma 1]

Thanks for postin this Boats!
I won't comment on warrantees or politics here, but it is sort of a bad rub from a company that's been in more than a few dust ups over management decisions than others. And while I haven't bought any new S&Ws I continue to purchase the older pieces with reckless abandon!

Time now too start cultivating the aftermarket suppliers like Apex and hope they can pick up the ball as it were. Plus as Fastbolt said, most of these pistols tend to go a long time with regular maintenance.
Mec-Gar is still producing mags for the 5900 series, also gun shows will still have mags for most of the popular models. Wolff Springs will gladly se you springs of all shapes and sizes. Novak and Wilson would be good places to start askin, especially Novak.
We ain't dead yet!
Dale
And Master Chief, I have a. 1970 Plymouth Roadrunner with the 426 HEMI, parts are available as long as you like aftermarket or are willing to pay Mother MOPAR.

 

[03Fatboy]

Don't get discouraged Bill. I appreciate the links and share in the legitimate concern of the shrinking market for parts availability. I have taken it for granted until now because I always called Smith in the past and several days later I had my springs and followers, etc. That all changed since last summer when placing two orders similar to past orders, but these never showed up.

I think this thread has been tough on many 3rd Gen owners who are genuinely concerned with the state of things in the future when it comes to repairs. Simple in nature but not for the faint hearted.

I'm with you, I like them and have learned much about them from your help and others. I have made mistakes, some more costly than others. Bottom line is, I'm tired of relying on others to do substandard work and charge me for it.

 

[kbm6893]

I'm sorry, I'm afraid I just don't see it that way. I'm paraphrasing here but I read their warranty to cover defects in material and workmanship at no cost to the original owner for as long at that person owns the firearm. I read that to mean factory screwups that get past QC are remedied for free. And "remedy" doesn't mean your gun gets repaired either. I've read cases where an owner was offered to buy an "equivalent" current production gun because parts for their gun were no longer available. I don't see anything referring no cost replacement of wear items or consumables under warranty, in fact, normal wear and tear are specifically mentioned as not covered. Nor do I read anything regarding parts support in perpetuity. I do see where the warranty is granted NOT to the firearm but to the original owner and is not transferable thus all those second hand used guns out there (like every one of mine) have no warranty coverage at all.

Even so, how many times have we seen posts here and on other boards praising S&W when they've granted warranty service to guns that were clearly not covered.

Sure the Roadrunner had a warranty, only the Hemi-Cuda was sold sans warranty. Sounds to me like some folks around here are expecting free belts & tires for as long as their Roadrunner exists. Even if there was a "lifetime" warranty, what do you suppose might happen after sending the Roadrunner in for warranty repair. I wager Dodge would offer sale of a 2014 Dart at a discount in lieu of repair because the OEM parts supply dried up three decades ago. Ehh unlikely there's anyone there competent or qualified to work on that car anyway.

Look, I'm as disappointed as anyone by what appears to be S&W's move to drop parts support for these out of production models. However, in my experience, manufacturers in general typically maintain parts support for about 10 years post production. Then the supply of OEM parts starts to dry up and often times the aftermarket will pick up the slack. At what point does it become unreasonable to expect a manufacturer to continue parts support for out of production products? 10 years? 20years? 30? forever? I don't know.

As far as warranties/guarantees et al. in my opinion all that noise is nothing more than a marketing gimmick intended to increase market share. I know of many manufacturers who make top tier stuff and have no warranty and, if there's ever a problem they take care of it no question asked. I don't know, it kinda seems to me to have to write all that legal stuff down and call it a warranty to up your market share is rather disingenuous in my book. I do my due diligence and place more value on what I know of or can learn about the product than what papers come with it. Rarely if ever does a warranty have bearing on my purchasing decisions.

I look at it this way. A cheap piece of high profit margin plastic & pot metal rubbish with a lifetime warranty is still just a cheap piece of plastic & pot metal rubbish. And, if it breaks or blows up the remedy is you get a brand new shiny cheap piece of high profit margin plastic & pot metal rubbish. Aint that just grand!

No Thank You!
I am my own warranty station!


Of course it does however you're not screwed. Power Custom has you covered for a replacement hammer nose & rivet
HAMMER NOSE KITS FOR S&W | Brownells

You know, I didn't start this thread to argue the merits or lack thereof of S&W's warranty or corporate policy re: parts support. And I'm a little disappointed it has devolved in that direction. I merely wanted to share the outfits I knew of that had parts for these guns. Maybe I should have picked a different car for my analogy, that one just happens to be my favorite car. Sorry.

So, if you have knowledge of a parts source that hasn't already been mentioned feel free to post it. Or if you want help in finding a certain widget ask away, I may even have a spare widget laying about I'll send to you.

Otherwise, I'm done here.

Cheers
Bill

Guns last longer then cars. S&W owes it to their customers to continue to support these weapons. As for the warranty, members of this forum are not representatives of gun owners. Many gun owners buy a gun and shoot it very little. As for the tires and brakes analogy, wouldn't you be upset if you got 200 miles off your brake pads and then had to pay for new pads?How many people have had to send back a new gun? If they wanna charge me for parts thats OK as long as they have them.

This whole thing reeks of s&w pushing people to buy m&p's