.45 ACP: What is it good for? Absolutely nothing?

[max503]

If someone was coming at you and you had one bullet what would you choose?

 

[JayFramer]

If someone was coming at you and you had one bullet what would you choose?

One bullet? I'll assume you mean a handgun bullet? In that case, a .460 S&W Magnum loaded with a lightweight semi-jacketed hollow point.

 

[V0OBWxZS16]

Actually, modern JHPs such as Hornady's XTP bullet design are known to be reliable performers in .380 ACP, they expand reliably and typically penetrate 12" in FBI Calibrated Ballistics Gel.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the .380 ACP got a bad reputation due to the fact that domestic ammo was downloaded for decades out of concern for all the straight blowback operated Saturday Night Specials/Ring of Fire guns made of cheap pot metal.
Meanwhile, in Europe the .380 ACP remained in use by various Law Enforcement agencies well into the 1980s because it wasn't downloaded.

Thankfully, with all of the high quality short recoil operated .380 Pocket Pistols on the market today, ammo is no longer downloaded here in the States and now offers performance on par with Standard Pressure .38 Special loads, which is completely adequate for self-defense.

Ironically, a somewhat lesser known fact is that when John Moses Browning designed the .380 ACP cartridge he did so by scaling down his .45 ACP cartridge design.

One of them went over 18". (I don't know of any auto-glass testing of .380s.)

You have what I consider a funny definition of reliable performance.

 

[DB404]

"Tastes great!" "Less filling!"

It kind of seems that who ever got this thread going might be the kind of guy to suggest to the person next to him on the barstool that the guy two more stools over just said something rude about the first guy's sister.

I am aware of several shootings involving the 44 magnum (lots of them up north) in which the recipient of the slug kept in the fight; ditto two occasions with 12 gauge slugs. My point is that if neither of those rounds was a sure thing in a fight, betting the farm on the 9mm, the 40, the 10 or the 45 may be kind of sketchy unless you know how to apply the force where it counts. BTW, NOTHING easily man portable is a for sure (100%) stopper. If you are of the opinion that 45 hardball is a reliable stopper, go shoot five or six porcupines and see what you think after that. IIRC, there are about an equal number of Medal of Honor winners who earned the medal through use of captured 9mm Lugers and P-38s as there were MOH recipients through use of the 1911 .45 ACP.

 

[Echo40]

If someone was coming at you and you had one bullet what would you choose?

I would choose a 12 Gauge Brenneke Black Magic Magnum Slug.

If Shotgun slugs don't count, then I'll go with .50 BMG.

If Rifle bullets don't count, then I'll go with a .460 S&W Magnum.

One of them went over 18". (I don't know of any auto-glass testing of .380s.)

You have what I consider a funny definition of reliable performance.

Congratulations, you cherry-picked one specific instance in which an XTP failed to reliably expand through 4 layers of heavy denim from a line of testing in which every other XTP load functioned flawlessly in bare gel and overall performed decently through denim.

Meanwhile, the bare gel results were perfect, but you didn't show those results because it didn't support your argument.

Too bad, I actually watched ShootingtheBull410's .380 Ammo Quest on YouTube in its entirety, and nearly all XTP bullets made it into his Winner's Circle, with the winner being Precision One XTPs.

Final Results of the .380 ACP Ammo Quest | Shooting The Bull

As you can see, in most cases, the XTP bullet expanded with total reliability, with only those shot through 4 layers of heavy denim failing to expand in a few cases.
Now you can go right on ahead and attempt to make the argument that matters, but considering that in real life it would be virtually impossible for someone to wear 4 layers of denim on their person while maintaining any form of mobility, it's a weak argument at best.

But hey, you got me. There were at least a few cases in which .380 XTP bullets failed to expand with 100% reliability when fired through 4 layers of heavy denim.

 

[Fastbolt]

I am aware of several shootings involving the 44 magnum (lots of them up north) in which the recipient of the slug kept in the fight; ditto two occasions with 12 gauge slugs. My point is that if neither of those rounds was a sure thing in a fight, betting the farm on the 9mm, the 40, the 10 or the 45 may be kind of sketchy unless you know how to apply the force where it counts. BTW, NOTHING easily man portable is a for sure (100%) stopper. ...

I also stopped being surprised by the occasional "failure-to-stop" when a shotgun (buck or slug) or a rifle was involved, too. It happens. People are pretty resilient, and not everyone has allowed themselves to be programmed to expect to keel over when shot.

I do, however, like to suspect that a "double tap" or "hammer" with a shotgun or rifle might well have better potential for resulting in a "stop" than when a handgun is involved.

Choose your compromise.

 

[S&W Rover]

We sometimes forget the 1911 was designed in the era of horse cavalry, when pistols were supplanting the saber as a close-in weapon. Why did the Army adopt the .45 ACP? Just because of the Moros? Maybe, but it is also likely the Army liked the .45 caliber because of its suitability to cavalry work – the only place where it would be used as a soldier's primary weapon.

The 1911's strange safety mechanisms makes sense when you think about how they were designed for the cavalryman – whom we can presume was not trained to carry a round in the chamber until right before an action, when he would chamber a round and carry the pistol into the fight cocked and locked at the ready until gaining close contact, when he would push down the safety and get to business.

Today when people carry the 1911 they adapt to the gun, since cocked and locked is really not a great way to carry a weapon, nor is carrying a round in the chamber with the hammer down. (Remember too that when the 1911 was issued it was most often carried in a holster with a flap – good for safety and for protecting the gun, but not ideal for rapid deployment of the pistol.)

Back to the cavalry: .45 ACP is a good caliber to put down a horse, either the enemy's in a close-in fight or yours if you are half out of the saddle and losing control of your mount. The .45 ACP has characteristics similar to the .45 Long Colt used before it, foremost that large heavy bullet and its ability to penetrate skulls and break bones – of horses as well as enemy soldiers.

Strong suit of the .45 ACP? It lies in that penetrating, crushing capability found in the large, heavy bullet – which can be very useful in specific circumstances. I'm surprised .45 ACP adherents haven't done more work exploring the benefits of hard cast lead bullets with flat noses and Lehigh Defender/Black Hills Honey Badger solid bullets. It might change the terms of this discussion.

The picture shows "US Army Cavalry troops on maneuvers circa 1930, 1911 pistols in hand" and was borrowed from Ammoland's post about history of the 1911 pistol:

 

[Echo40]

The .357 magnum round is far and away the finest self defense handgun round ever developed.

Every other round is defective, compared to the mighty .357 magnum.

Let the flaming begin. lol

I doubt that anyone will argue over the effectiveness of the .357 Magnum cartridge, nor do I think that anybody will flame you over such an innocuous opinion.

That being said, I don't think that there's a such thing as "the best" when it comes to self-defense cartridges, especially when folks come in all shapes and sizes, thus making the concept of a one-size-fits-all cartridge rather far-fetched.

Let's try to stay on-topic though, this is a thread about .45 ACP.

 

[DB404]

In some respects, I think all of us admirers of the 1911 .45 ACP are rubes. Why? Well, we're always waxing poetically (or stridently) about its power. Powerful? Really? Heck, its more or less just a semi-auto platform for the .45 Schofield! Which was quite a step down from the .45 Colt (20 grains less bullet - from 250 to 230, and 12 grains less powder - from 40 grains to 28). Hardly a barn burner. But if you look at the ballistics of original 45 ACP GI loads, they're dang close to that Schofield loading. Was it better than 9mm ball? Heck yes. I have taken deer and other game with the 45 ACP, but in those outings I relied on a load pushing the H&G #68 200 grain SWC at 1,000 fps. It worked quite well. In a round about way, I'm alive today because of a 1911 .45; it was used in WWI by my grandfather, who was hit by a Maxim as he threw a grenade into its gun pit. He used his .45 (he was a Lewis gunner, so carried a 1911 routinely) to incentivize a couple of German prisoners to make a stretcher from their great coats and a couple of long Mauser rifles, and to then haul him to a first aid station.

 

[V0OBWxZS16]

Congratulations, you cherry-picked one specific instance in which an XTP failed to reliably expand through 4 layers of heavy denim from a line of testing in which every other XTP load functioned flawlessly in bare gel and overall performed decently through denim.

Meanwhile, the bare gel results were perfect, but you didn't show those results because it didn't support your argument.

The Extremas were simply the first XTP loading listed on that page.*

I believe 4-layer denim testing is a better indicator of bullet performance than bare gel. Dr. Roberts, for instance, has stated that bullets pulled from bodies tend to look like 4LD bullets and not bare gel bullets. 4LD was also developed as an engineering test and not as a representative piece of clothing likely to be encountered. (Besides, the seams in clothing can easily have four layers of cloth in them.)

9mm, .40, and .45 (the namesake of this thread) all offer loads that will perform against sturdier barriers such as wall board or auto-glass and sheet steel, which is useful if you are defending your home or are the target of a road rage incident.

Dr. Roberts lists 16 9mm, 11 .40, and 8 .45 ACP loads that offer acceptable performance whereas STB410 found only two bullet designs that offered acceptable performance and in only two test barriers. IMHO that indicates something.

* After re-watching the Final Wrapup they were also indicated as his second choice (along with the Hydra-Shok.)

 

[Echo40]

In some respects, I think all of us admirers of the 1911 .45 ACP are rubes. Why? Well, we're always waxing poetically (or stridently) about its power. Powerful? Really? Heck, its more or less just a semi-auto platform for the .45 Schofield! Which was quite a step down from the .45 Colt (20 grains less bullet - from 250 to 230, and 12 grains less powder - from 40 grains to 28). Hardly a barn burner. But if you look at the ballistics of original 45 ACP GI loads, they're dang close to that Schofield loading. Was it better than 9mm ball? Heck yes. I have taken deer and other game with the 45 ACP, but in those outings I relied on a load pushing the H&G #68 200 grain SWC at 1,000 fps. It worked quite well. In a round about way, I'm alive today because of a 1911 .45; it was used in WWI by my grandfather, who was hit by a Maxim as he threw a grenade into its gun pit. He used his .45 (he was a Lewis gunner, so carried a 1911 routinely) to incentivize a couple of German prisoners to make a stretcher from their great coats and a couple of long Mauser rifles, and to then haul him to a first aid station.

To be fair though, the .45 ACP was for quite a long time the most powerful semiautomatic pistol cartridge, and even today it holds up favorably, with only a handful of semiautomatic pistol cartridges which are nowhere near as popular.

Honestly, the most popular semiautomatic pistol cartridge which is substantially more powerful than .45 ACP is 10mm Auto, which just so happens to share the 1911 as the most popular pistol it is chambered in.

Heck, if one thing stands as testament to the power of the .45 ACP cartridge, it's the number of people who brag about how certain loads from smaller caliber cartridges can equal its energy.

 

[Rodinal220]

I bet 45acp sells well in New Jersey!!

 

[Echo40]

I bet 45acp sells well in New Jersey!!

Assuming it isn't banned for being just too darn deadly or because it's just so darn intimidating that the mere act of having it on display inside a gunshop is considered a form of brandishing.

 

[Autonomous]

The .45 ACP cartridge certainly stirs up emotion with it's history and heft.
In my case it is first a toy. My 1911 it is the most satisfying and fun gun I have ever shot. With it's low pressures it is easy to reload safely. I am a huge fan of .45 ACP 1911s.
For self defense it is adequate but nothing special. Research shows a bullet needs to be moving at 2,200 fps or more to shock/incapacitate beyond just what the wound channel of a slower bullet does.

 

[kraynky]

If someone was coming at you and you had one bullet what would you choose?

A 200 gr full wad cutter in my 45 acp revolver. Bang, Splat!

 

[JayFramer]

One thing the .45 will do is never shrink.

Even the timeless manstopper, the 230 grain FMJ rounded nose ball cartridge, has a near peerless record of stopping the fight RIGHT NOW.

The 9mm? Yeah right. Nowhere NEAR as combat effective in FMJ. And with modern hollowpoints, the .45 has been as well developed as 9mm.

 

[Darkenfast]

Everybody just keeps repeating the same myths over and over. I've yet to see a scientific study that proves from real-world data that .45ACP FMJ is significantly better than 9mm FMJ, or similarly, that the JHP versions differ significantly from each other.

 

[jim lock]

For Me
45acp=Confidence.
Jim

 

[Groo01]

Groo here
" About anything east of the Mississippi"
And many things west.

 

[Not Getting Any Younger]

Fun!
Self-defense! ("Pest" controle)
I could go on ...

 

[muddocktor]

I'm a relatively new convert to the 45 ACP cartridge and the 1911 pistols. My first experience with a 1911 style pistol was about 5-6 years ago when I bought a Coonan Classic in 357 Magnum. The Coonan is sort of a hybrid that combines the 1911 and JM Browning's last design, the High Power, but more 1911 than HP. I love that pistol but the big disadvantage to it is the fact that it chunks brass easily 50-60 feet and since I am a reloader that was problematic for brass recovery. But I loved the way it fit my hand and it's accuracy. So few years ago I decided to try out a true 1911 in it's native caliber, 45 ACP. I bought an inexpensive ATI military clone and found it to be pretty accurate and fun to shoot. And I found the 45 ACP cartridge easy to reload and not much more expensive to reload than for 9 MM. Since then, me and the 1911 and the 45 ACP have become fast friends and earlier this year decided to splurge and buy a custom 1911, which is laser accurate BTW.

Is the 45 ACP a dinosaur round with no relevance to today? I say no. No more so than the 9 MM Luger, which is almost as old. Both will do a credible job of stopping a man (or critter) for a pistol round. Advances in bullet tech and powder tech have both even more effective. And one thing that is a disadvantage, the size of the cartridge giving you less rounds in the mag as compared to 9 MM can also be a virtue, IMO. Since you only have 7-8 rounds in a single stack 1911, I think that it makes the owner of said weapons more aware that they need to practice more often to be competent. With double stack 9 MM guns a lot of people seem to gravitate to the "spray and pray" method instead of practicing. If I can't take it out with 9 rounds, I probably won't do it any better with 18 rounds.

At least that's the way I see it.

 

[Shrek Of The Arctic]

I've been pondering the perception of the .45 ACP for quite awhile now. It seems that in the friendly debates that come along in the gun world, I'm finding myself defending the .45 ACP more frequently than ever, and the use of a .45 revolver? Heck, I might as well be trying to storm the castle with a flintlock rifle from what most folks tell me.

So....When I was a young kid, not quite old enough to buy a handgun legally yet, I spent a lot of time hanging out at the local gun shop and drooling on the various handguns, and paying attention to all things handgun. There were a lot of people carrying the Beretta 92, Glocks were just catching on..half the folks thought Glocks blew up into a mushroom cloud once a primer was struck, the other half figgered it was just fine to drop out of a helicopter, run over with a T-72 tank, and pass the ultimate plasma cutter test.

I remember listening in on so many conversations from the older me "who know" about how it's a crazy, crazy world out there in the year 1991. Why...there's gangs out there a killin' each other cuz they're wearing the wrong color shirts or shoes" Gangs are everywhere now. You gotta have capacity!

Well...then along comes the Clinton Slime bill and the requisite ten round maximum magazine capacity. All of a sudden, the 1911 .45 ACP was the reigning king of the handgun world. You couldn't buy a gun rag without a snazzy, custom 1911 on the cover. Remember, this was before concealed carry laws swept the nation, and back when you had to pay some serious money to have custom triggers, hammers, sights, beaver tails, full length guide rods, etc. installed.

In any case, "those who know" as well as every gun scribe out there made it quite clear that a fella had to be a three fingered bumbling idiot or the unluckiest guy in the world if they needed more ammunition than a 1911 could carry.

Then....the Slime Bill expired. And all the high capacity handguns came back a roarin'. more LEO changed back to 9mm, terminal ballistics, more reliable expansion, etc. etc.

I guess what I'm sayin' is I've been around long enough to see the trends, marketing, vacillations. Throughout it all, the .45 Has always been a half inch hole in a target when properly placed, whether it expanded or not. As I recall John Linebaugh pointing out...weight penetrates, and that is a known measure.

Additionally, there are lifestyle choices. as well as various locations to consider. For example, while a 9mm may be fine in Miami Florida, in Anchorage Alaska it could be that a fella may need to shoot a raging meth monkey...or an angry bull moose. a heavy, well placed .45 slug does much to ensure a bit more versatility between man and beast.

While I don't begrudge anyone's choice of caliber, I'm most comfortable with my .45 revolver. I've been that way for more than a decade now, and I don't see it changing.

 

[sotexas]

I enjoy shooting my 45's. As gman51 stated "the push feeling of the recoil" is very manageable. Every time I let someone shoot a 45 for the first time they usually respond with "That didn't kick as much as I thought it would". Personally the round is very accurate for me with my 1911's and my S&W 2.0 probably the most accurate of all my handguns. I feel the round is very accurate, dependable, and will perform as intended.

 

[Breaker]

Another factor in choosing a caliber is the fact that the weapon must be controllable and not too large for the smallest statured Officers on the force. Some people simply shoot better with a 9mm and others like the capacity.

Although there is only one degree of dead, I still have more confidence in the .45 ACP over the 9MM and that is what gets the nod for full size carry with me.

 

[Biggfoot44]

I only went thru two pages, but think I have the gist .


*Without comparing to any other cal * .... Does whatever a big bore, moderate pressure handgun round does/ reasonably expected to do . And continues to do so as well or better than it ever has .

 

[LI Ammo]

Well, 103 years after this crate of .45acp for the 1911 was shipped from the Frankford Armory, we still have men who used it in in life-saving situations here on the forum discussing its advantages. I suppose that by itself says something.

(800 of the 1000 rounds are still intact in the box)

 

[AJ]

Well, 103 years after this crate of .45acp for the 1911 was shipped from the Frankford Armory, we still have men who used it in in life-saving situations here on the forum discussing its advantages. I suppose that by itself says something.

(800 of the 1000 rounds are still intact in the box)

Wish I had it in my collection!

 

[Ribwizzard]

A year or so ago, I would have argued it is a slow and outdated useless round. Selling off a high dollar Sig 1911 becouse it was a heavy brick that didn't shoot well, I had no further interest or desire to shoot .45 acp.
Then I bought a Colt series 70 1911. In blue steel. What a difference. Such a sweet shooting pistol. Slowly beginning to become my favorite range gun.
I still feel the round has many disadvantages, my fun at the range is not one of them. Big hole makes it easy to see where you hit is # 1 advantage.

 

[HamHands]

If folks worried less about caliber and more about anatomy and shot placement everyone would be more secure.

And when the "S" hits the fan and you actually have to pull your piece and shoot until slide lock or cylinder dump... you can certainly expect your normal pretty group size on paper to open up to 2 to 3+ times the size of your normal range day groupings when the true heat of the moment rears it's ugly head... Adrenaline is a hell of a drug. Stay consistent and always take the easiest/widest point on a Perp in your target picture and drive the gun's business end to stay on that target area when squeezing off rounds. For me, the wife, and my brother... we train for hits on target where we figure the navel and/or the pelvis bone is on the Perp. Sadly enough in today's American "Twinkie and Diet Coke" diet... the Navel/Pelvis area is most certainly the widest point to aim at a Perp... whether facing hips strait on or in a bladed position.

.38Special, 9mm, .44Special, and .45ACP's are all good dirtbag stoppers when using heavy for caliber pills, all with a muzzle velocity of 900fps or greater... The lower abdomen/bowels/hip area is the most painful place to be shot at on/in the human body... (so I've been informed that is)... YMMV...

 

[Univibe]

No. Gut shots need not incapacitate anybody. Adjust your training to attempt to hit vital organs.