5.56 and Stopping Power...

[geoff40]

A lot of VC were killed by the 5.56
Today its killing plenty more in far away places like Iraq and Afghanistan. Seems to me the 5.56 is a pretty good cartridge.

 

[perpster]

A hit with a 5.56 is better than a miss with an 11.0.

 

[GatorFarmer]

Originally posted by CelticSire:
Considering the fact that there were survivors at both Hiroshima and Nagasaki, does it still really surprise anyone that there is no single round that is 100% effective every time in every situation?

There was actually a news item today about a guy who survived both Hiroshima and Nagasaki and is currently 93 years old...

 

[tom turner]

How interesting this topic came up now.

We just buried a long time member of our hunting club, a Vietnam veteran. The night before he passed away I was at the hospital with another fine Vietnam veteran who is a very modest guy. He was also an Army recon guy in 'Nam. Later, he went in the Air Force and retired as an E-9.

As we made small talk I asked something I've wanted to ask him for eight years . . .

"Hey Dan, tell me about that NVA Captain I heard try to take your head off.".

Dan told me he'd had to shoot a lot of guys during missions with the M-16 and most went right down with one shot. The North Vietnamese captain was different though.

Dan emptied three 30 round "banana clips" and part of a fourth as the guy came at him.

He said the guy had to have been on powerful drugs. Most shots were center of chest and he said chunks of the man were flying off but he kept coming . . . finally even getting right to Dan. He only died after Dan had to slit his throat deeply with his knife.

The guy was shot to bits, yet stayed in the fight . . . truly a "dead man walking," but still extremely dangerous who advanced quite a ways to get to Dan's position.

Dan added that he still has the guy's handgun. Dan went through a lot over there, but is probably as fine and stable a man as I've ever met . . . and a heck of a hunter too!

 

[sasu]

So called assault rifles that use a light, low recoiling caliber were developed after the experiences of urban fighting in World War II.

I consider 223 Rem/5.56 NATO and 7.62x39 calibers suitable for indoor use. For outdoors battlefield use we have 308 Win/7.62 NATO.

Modern mechanised troops often have heavier support fire available immediately when requested so their personal weapons do not have to be so powerful. But if you are fighting on foot, you have to carry the firepower yourself: 7.62.

For civilian self defense you probably do not need the power of a heavier caliber. You have to justify shooting a person in self defense and it is has hard to imagine being under such an imminent threat if the target is 100 yards or farther away. Self defense shots would probably be at very close range so a 223 Rem should work fine.

 

[pps]

Originally posted by GatorFarmer:

Originally posted by CelticSire:
Considering the fact that there were survivors at both Hiroshima and Nagasaki, does it still really surprise anyone that there is no single round that is 100% effective every time in every situation?

There was actually a news item today about a guy who survived both Hiroshima and Nagasaki and is currently 93 years old...

Keith Richards?

 

[2Loud4You]

Originally posted by sasu:
For civilian self defense you probably do not need the power of a heavier caliber. You have to justify shooting a person in self defense and it is has hard to imagine being under such an imminent threat if the target is 100 yards or farther away. Self defense shots would probably be at very close range so a 223 Rem should work fine.

If I ever have to fire in self defense I REALLY hope it's with one of my pistols and not my Sig 556. I can see the media circus now about me shooting some poor guy with my "assault rifle". They would forget the part about the guy being a criminal out to do harm and focus on that "Evil Black Gun".

 

[S/W - Lifer]

Here's a topic that anyone with an opinion could write a book on - and likely make their case.

I've used this round my entire adult life, one way or another, from several different platforms. I think it is a groundhog cartridge. Results on people reflect that. The old GI 55 grain load works pretty well for some things, the newer greentip is better for others.

Like everything else, blow out the brain, break the neck or spine high up and they will drop. You gotta turn off the electrical generator or major transmission lines to get quick success. Other than that, you are depriving them of oxygen by bleeding them out and that can take a while. It doesn't matter if you are shooting a .22 or 20mm.

The wild cards are extreme anger, drugs or adrenalin. In which case you blow out the brain, break the neck or sever the spine high up etc.

Best of all is never having to go there and all of this stays in the realm of speculation.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Originally posted by pps:

Originally posted by GatorFarmer:

Originally posted by CelticSire:
Considering the fact that there were survivors at both Hiroshima and Nagasaki, does it still really surprise anyone that there is no single round that is 100% effective every time in every situation?

There was actually a news item today about a guy who survived both Hiroshima and Nagasaki and is currently 93 years old...

Keith Richards?

Now I don't care what anyone says, That's funny

 

[perpster]

Originally posted by CAJUNLAWYER:

Originally posted by pps:

Originally posted by GatorFarmer:

Originally posted by CelticSire:
Considering the fact that there were survivors at both Hiroshima and Nagasaki, does it still really surprise anyone that there is no single round that is 100% effective every time in every situation?

There was actually a news item today about a guy who survived both Hiroshima and Nagasaki and is currently 93 years old...

Keith Richards?

Now I don't care what anyone says, That's funny

Not as funny as your new avatar!

 

[Doug M.]

Originally posted by BE Mike:

Originally posted by Doug M.:
Gary Roberts has published a list of various 5.56 rounds which meet criteria based on what the shooting need is (barrier or not, etc). There are no magic bullets, including .308 or slugs. Some folks are hard to stop, and placement really matters. One can have non-survivable wounds and continue to function - even a few seconds as described early in the string is too long on the 2 way range, but that sort of outcome will not change in the near future.

I'm comfortable with my AR as a patrol rifle, because at close range I can do an NSR (non-standard response) in short time in a reasonably small space.

I just read one of Jim Cirillo's books. He had similar observations to yours. Jim thought that nothing was a sure stopper, even a 12 ga. slug. He saw most of it first hand.

*
Yeah, Cirillo did some important empirical research on the topic while on the stakeout squad, and his writings can teach us a lot. Chuck Taylor has written about his experiences with .45ACP ball. Pat Rogers refers in his classes to his observations from NYPD shootings, including his own shootings, and his experiences in 'Nam (including a .308 failure on Charlie at pretty close range with good hits). Other folks have been out there with guns in combat of various types and reported their experiences.

The shooter's delivery to the target, the target's motivation (FBI 1986 shootout), etc are all variables, just as the ammo is. Get a load that works every time in your gun, which has a decent record/reputation for/match to your needs/conditions; develop good knowledge of where to shoot your adversary (humans or animals, depending on your situation), and keep shooting until they no longer present a threat. Don't expect a "one shot stop" - the one time it matters might be the one time you don't get one!

 

[ParadiseRoad]

...this might be stopping power...

CLICK HERE



.