9mm seems inferior to me. Why?

[bmcgilvray]

" the 9mm when loaded to original Euro-specs , (not the liability lawyer watered down US-spec stuff) , the 9mm will win every time over the .38 Special , std vel or +P."

What were these "original Euro-specs and how do they relate to the 9mm "winning every time?"

 

[TNDave]

Nothing wrong with the 40 cal. But the 9 is fine too. Remember the 40 S&W duplicates the ballistics of the misnamed 38-40 cartridge so it is not really anything new.

 

[mkk41]

" the 9mm when loaded to original Euro-specs , (not the liability lawyer watered down US-spec stuff) , the 9mm will win every time over the .38 Special , std vel or +P."

What were these "original Euro-specs and how do they relate to the 9mm "winning every time?"

Like I said , given bullets of equal weight , and barrels of equal length , the 9mm will be faster.

Generally European ammo is loaded hotter , or was , than US-SAAMI. Probably 100fps.

IIRC , domestic 9mm ammo was held to somewhat low pressure mainly because of concerns of firing it the the weak 1910 Italian Glisenti , which used a cartridge dimensionally identical to the 9x19mm Parabellum/Luger , but loaded to pressures approximately of the .380 ACP. Firing full power 9x19 could have you 'eating Italian'.

Concern of late effort WWII pistols made to dangerously low quality by slave labor is another story.

.38 Special pressure is about what , 17,500psi , 9mm 30-32,000?

All ya gotta do is check ammo makers ballistic charts. Most ammomakers have them on their website.

FWIW , the 8mm Mauser is in the same boat. IT was barely above the 30/30. For many years , US 8mm ammo was held to about 35,000psi out of concerns that someone would fire it in an 1888 Commission rifle with .318 barrel , not a '98 with .323 barrel.

WWII German ammo was in fact more powerful than our beloved 30-06. So was the 7.62x54R Russian

 

[mickeyblueyes]

To the original poster, it's a personal choice so I don't care what you shoot, my thoughts are if you don't yet, start loading your own ,then you can have full power 40s and even 10 mms like the 40 love the 10

 

[M_E_]

You are just not informed.

I got a chance to speak with the engineers from ATK at the SHOT Show last year. They were both 45 ACP ? full size 1911 guys. They developed the HST line of ammo for Federal and worked on the Gold Dots for Speer. The new HST 9 MM 147 gr +P round actually OUT PERFORMED the same bullet in a 230 gr 45 ACP!! not my data, theirs! Go to their website & look at their work. According to them, that load is deadlier from a G26 Glock because they could put all 11 rounds into a target accurately in the same time it took to fire 3.8 rounds of 45 from the 1911.

They both carry that load in a G26 or a Walther PPS.

Again, not my data, ATKs data!!

 

[Boge]

You are just not informed.

I got a chance to speak with the engineers from ATK at the SHOT Show last year. They were both 45 ACP ? full size 1911 guys. They developed the HST line of ammo for Federal and worked on the Gold Dots for Speer. The new HST 9 MM 147 gr +P round actually OUT PERFORMED the same bullet in a 230 gr 45 ACP!! not my data, theirs! Go to their website & look at their work. According to them, that load is deadlier from a G26 Glock because they could put all 11 rounds into a target accurately in the same time it took to fire 3.8 rounds of 45 from the 1911.

They both carry that load in a G26 or a Walther PPS.

Again, not my data, ATKs data!!

No offense, but taking the word of engineers who have only lab experience is sort of like taking advice from a monk on lovemaking. These guys know that in order to garner LE contracts they have to pass the arbitrary FBI tests and everything else is secondary. Last time I looked Lewiston, ID & Anoka, MN weren't exactly hotbeds of crime.

 

[ezveedub]

I don't think any caliber is inferior at all. If you use the correct load, every caliber is deadly. Any good 9mm +P or +P+ is very effective. Keep in mind, there's a difference in ammo when it comes to commercial ammo and LE ammo. The LE ammo is always loaded properly and to full spec. I noticed this early on using various Amos and then using what the LE/MIL use. Definitely and difference. When you get into proper loaded 10mm ammo is where you can really start to see differences when it comes to deep penetration, but even that is subject to many various questions of effectiveness. If you think 9mm is inferior, try taking a few shots of it directly and tell me what you think.

 

[alwslate]

I guess I have a mental block. I can't help but to think that the 9mm is an inferior round. The .380 even more so. I love the .40 however. The .45 is ok also but not as fast as the .40. So that said, I like and only own semi-autos. What could this mental block possibly be?

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Funny thing is I seem to have a mental block when it comes
to the 40 S&W round. I remember when it first came out there
were lots of problems with the ammo and feed ramps in some
guns. The hype about 45 acp power levels in 9mm size guns.
The problems with 9mm size guns being beaten up by the
high pressure 40 cal and the necessity of redesigning guns
around the new cartridge. And all for what? Nothing really.
There's really not much difference in effectiveness between
the best rounds in 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 acp. I don't own
a 40 S&W and never will. The 9mm is by far the most practical
all around pistol cartridge.

 

[Waywatcher]

Funny thing is I seem to have a mental block when it comes
to the 40 S&W round. I remember when it first came out there
were lots of problems with the ammo and feed ramps in some
guns. The hype about 45 acp power levels in 9mm size guns.
The problems with 9mm size guns being beaten up by the
high pressure 40 cal and the necessity of redesigning guns
around the new cartridge. And all for what? Nothing really.
There's really not much difference in effectiveness between
the best rounds in 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 acp. I don't own
a 40 S&W and never will. The 9mm is by far the most practical
all around pistol cartridge.

9mm and .40 both share the same maximum pressure.

.40 is the predominant LE round today, and as such, gets the most R&D. It is hard to find a bad .40 jhp load, while it is hard to find a good 9mm jhp load. Examples of exceptions on both sides exist, but as a general rule, it holds true.

 

[fdw]

9mm and .40 both share the same maximum pressure.

.40 is the predominant LE round today, and as such, gets the most R&D. It is hard to find a bad .40 jhp load, while it is hard to find a good 9mm jhp load. Examples of exceptions on both sides exist, but as a general rule, it holds true.

All you need is one .....


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[bmcgilvray]

While it 9mm is fully adequate and is always an appropriate choice it has always seemed to me to be the single most overrated handgun cartridge, beginning with the press given it in the gun rags in about the early 1980s. On the handgun forums, one sees relatively few fans of other cartridges, especially the ones in the .40 caliber and up range, who ballyhoo their choices as "nearly as good" or "just as good" as the performance of some other pistol cartridge. They seem self-assured in their selection of cartridges for personal defense. It's the 9mm shooters who most often strive mightily to justify their pick in the face of other great choices. They seem the most driven to make their champion cartridge relevant.

...Well, except for me extolling the .38 Special, heh!

 

[Moonman]

The 9MM has probable killed more people than any other caliber in the world.

Luger's, Beretta's, Sub-Guns and others.

 

[shawn mccarver]

I can't help but to think that the 9mm is an inferior round.
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The 9mm is a very highly developed round in terms of terminal performance and accuracy, compared to what it was in 1908 (it is older than the .45 ACP round). It is an excellent practice round. And, it is better than the .380, the .32 and all of the smaller cartridges. In my mind, it is at its best in the pocket autos such as the Walther PPS, S&W Shield, Ruger LC9, Beretta Nano, SIG Sauer 290RS, Springfield XD-S, and similar small autos.

Its biggest advantage, its small size, allowing more rounds to be carried, is at the same time its biggest disadvantage, since it strives to be "as good as" the .40 and .45 in stopping power. And, after all, stopping power is the name of the game. There are those who argue it is equal to the latter two rounds, but no one who seriously understands the topic says it is better.

The measure of what is or what is not a good round is different for say, self-defense, than it is for a precision shooting match. What is not a good measure, however, is how many people have been killed in history by a particular round. It may take a person shot hours or days to day. What you want is stopping power NOW. For defense, you want a round that stops the attacker from doing whatever he or she is doing NOW. The 9mm is marginal in this respect, and the only way to get it almost as good as a .40 or .45 ACP is with designer or premium ammo, not always readily available when you need it.

 

[Kanewpadle]

The 9mm is a very highly developed round in terms of terminal performance and accuracy, compared to what it was in 1908 (it is older than the .45 ACP round). It is an excellent practice round. And, it is better than the .380, the .32 and all of the smaller cartridges. In my mind, it is at its best in the pocket autos such as the Walther PPS, S&W Shield, Ruger LC9, Beretta Nano, SIG Sauer 290RS, Springfield XD-S, and similar small autos.

Its biggest advantage, its small size, allowing more rounds to be carried, is at the same time its biggest disadvantage, since it strives to be "as good as" the .40 and .45 in stopping power. And, after all, stopping power is the name of the game. There are those who argue it is equal to the latter two rounds, but no one who seriously understands the topic says it is better.

The measure of what is or what is not a good round is different for say, self-defense, than it is for a precision shooting match. What is not a good measure, however, is how many people have been killed in history by a particular round. It may take a person shot hours or days to day. What you want is stopping power NOW. For defense, you want a round that stops the attacker from doing whatever he or she is doing NOW. The 9mm is marginal in this respect, and the only way to get it almost as good as a .40 or .45 ACP is with designer or premium ammo, not always readily available when you need it.

The point is that when comparing the three calibers, there isn't enough of a difference in stopping power. Sure bigger will always be better. But for who?

And to say the 9MM is marginal shows a lack understanding to say the least. Handguns are notorious for NOT stopping someone. And there is plenty of well developed self defense ammo available for the 9MM than ever before.

If you or anyone else tries to tell me that the expansion difference in MILLIMETERS really makes that much of a difference then I know they're full of it. Same goes for penetration.

Wound channel, tissue damage? What a load of BS. Sure if you want to wait for the guy to bleed out then that's great! But the BULLET actually has to hit something vital and immediately incapacitating like the spine. So again a millimeter here or there means nothing. If you miss by a millimeter, SHOOT HIM AGAIN!

And the 9MM has always has the reputation for over penetration. But with todays ammo, that's no longer a concern.

Bigger is not always better.

 

[rwsmith]

WWII German ammo was in fact more powerful than our beloved 30-06. So was the 7.62x54R Russian

Am I reading this right? Not sure what you mean here. The 7.62x54 Russian was/is an intermediate assault rifle cartridge. The 30-06 was a full battle rifle cartridge that tops the Russian cartridge velocity by a couple of hundred ft/sec.

 

[Darkenfast]

7.62X54R Russian is the full-sized cartridge used in bolt-action rifles and machine guns and the like, you're thinking of the 7.62X39 Russian, which is used in the Avtomat Kalishnikov and such.

 

[rwsmith]

OH thank you....

7.62X54R Russian is the full-sized cartridge used in bolt-action rifles and machine guns and the like, you're thinking of the 7.62X39 Russian, which is used in the Avtomat Kalishnikov and such.

Thanks, I was scratching my head there.

 

[bmcgilvray]

The 9mm, introduced in 1902, is 3 whole years older than the .45 ACP, introduced in 1905.

All handgun cartridges which date from the dawn of the 20th century and retain a high degree of popularity are more highly developed by this point.

The 9mm is mere millimeters larger than the 6.35 (.25 ACP). Both cartridge can be had with bullets that offer expansion. Yes, it really makes a difference.

 

[Rgoodwin]

 

[DWalt]

Bullet placement is everything. Josef Stalin's personal executioner (yes, Stalin had one to take care of all those pesky folks that got in his way) killed thousands of victims with a .25 auto (a Walther). With 100% lethal hits on the first shot. His record was about 800 in one night.