A CCW curiosity question

[lrrifleman]

Greetings!

I think that it is relatively reasonable to state that a number of new (and perhaps some experienced) CCW carriers are turning to passive optics (ie: red dots) on their chosen carry pistol.

Fortunately, I have not found myself in a situation where I've had to draw my CCW, and hope that I never have to. However, in thinking it through, I would think that the need to find and place the dot on the threat could actually impair one's ability to employ their sidearm fast enough. I would think that a person that depends on iron sights could neutralize a threat faster once the muzzle starts to cover the close-in threat.

Are there any studies that have been conducted that can validate the effectiveness/speed of engaging a threat while under stress?

Thanks for trying to address this curiosity.

 

[Breakaway500]

In an all out draw snd shoot situation I’m going to point my weapon at the threat and pull the trigger till the problem is solved.I doubt anything I add to my gun will help that. Practicing for such an event would.. skill trumps gadgets every time. Unless your name is Bond.

 

[ken158]

Maybe old school but I have fired a Glock 19, Sig 365 and a Staccato 2011 both with and without an RMR and found I could hit faster and be more accurate with factory sights. At the distance where a threat would most likely be, I have no doubt the red dot whatever brand or model will be slower.

 

[Miracle Man]

We're all different, I know. But to me I'm a big believer in the KISS principle in CC matters. Iron sights for me!

 

[326MOD10]

The effective use of a dot style sight, at speed, is in the draw. Train properly and when you present the weapon from the holster the dot will be there. Using a dot sight has actually made me quicker with standard sights because the weapon is lined up on the draw.

With that said if you are in an up close draw and shoot situation because the bad guy is on top of you it won't matter what sights you have. You aren't going to be using them.

But if the super rare situation of a distance or precision shot is needed then the dot shines. Especially for those with aging eyes.

After all if standard sights were better at speed all the top competitive shooters wouldn't be using the dot sights.

Basically go with what you are comfortable with because it boils down to being your life on the line if, heaven forbid, you ever need it.

 

[smoothshooter]

At SD distances, I suspect a gun without any kind of sights or even rifling in the barrel would suffice most of the time.

But definitely no optics for me.

 

[djohns6]

Red dots and all of that stuff are fun at the range but I personally have no use for them on my EDC .

 

[AJ]

I have been shooting handguns for about 60 years. Have never used an optic, red dot or a laser in all that time. See no need to start now. At most self defense distances I think most of us would take longer to get the sight on target (be it Laser, red dot or optic) than an old fashioned iron sight.

 

[RGPM1A]

To use a red dot on your firearm you need to practice with it. Especially if you are going to draw from a holster and are used to iron sights. If you don't practice with the red dot you may find it difficult to find the dot when you are ready to take a shot.

BTW I use optics on all the guns I use in matches but would never put an optic on a carry gun.

 

[AJ]

To use a red dot on your firearm you need to practice with it. Especially if you are going to draw from a holster and are used to iron sights. If you don't practice with the red dot you may find it difficult to find the dot when you are ready to take a shot.

BTW I use optics on all the guns I use in matches but would never put an optic on a carry gun.

You need to practice no matter what you use. Optics or not.

 

[Spurdann]

I agree with many of the responses above. If you have time to aim it is not self defense. Practice draw and shoot at 25 yards, not feet, when you need it, you will be on target at any distance. If I keep all five in the pie plate, that is good enough for me.

 

[Doug M.]

If you go look at the hard use group (mil, some LE) and see what they are learning, there is no question that the RDS is a better system. With my eyes, finding most front sights is better than random chance, but not much.

BUT: From academy forward (34 years ago) , I was taught in the Gunsite style. All of our range staff had to be Gunsite graduates at high levels. Transitioning from that paradigm to a RDS on a handgun is not trivial. It took some cheats (suppressor height sights), and a lot of work on a correct presentation for RDS. Until you have completed a lot of good presentations while using RDS, it is difficult to use fast and well.

This forum is simply not significantly populated with the kind of hard use folks who have studied these topics in a sound academic manner and then put that knowledge into practice. Not good or bad, but a fact, and it limits the utility of the knowledge you might get here.

I did not develop comfort with RDS sights until I attended carbine courses taught by the late Pat Rogers (RIP, brother; we are diminished) and fund that shooting a long gun with an RDS was so much easier and more productive. My ARs have RDS; my shotgun has one; when I finally get my .357 lever gun it will too.

The agency for which I am legal advisor started going to (issued) RDS for "older" (40+ ) deputies. As their success became more apparent, more and more of the deputies went to RDS. There is not the slightest doubt that for such use, RDS are the better answer. (I have shot with them and cannot qualify with irons; An RDS would make the difference.) I admit I am an outlier among firearms folks and especially this forum. I can think of no excuse for a barrel over 18" on a 12 gauge, or for more at 16" on an AR. If for some odd reason I ended up back in LE, that would change. Shotguns for LE should be 14"; ARs 11.5" with a suppressor. The need to retrieve/maneuver from/in the car drives that train.

 

[Inusuit]

Too old a dog to learn new tricks. Iron sights on the EDC. I don't compete any more. Way back when I did, the unlimited shooters with dots got on target pretty quickly. Practice and familiarity are the key.

 

[OKFC05]

I have an opinion, but rather than tell you what I think, suggest you go to the USPSA near you and shoot on the timer from the holster with what you have now. Then consider sight alternatives using targets 10 yds and beyond.

A dozen of us who went to dinner together after a state match casually discussed who was carrying what, now that the competition pistols were cased, and we were casually dressed for warm weather. All had compact pistols and 8 were .38 snubs.

We all had larger pistols in our vehicles; some with optics. I have noticed having a larger pistol and/or rifle in the vehicle is rather common in Oklahoma.

 

[stansdds]

I prefer iron sights on my EDC. No batteries to die, no switch to turn on, no bulky sight to snag, print, or break when I might need it most.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Years ago read it takes 3000-4000 reps to build muscle memory... that would be live rounds not dry fire.... to get back on target.

Seen young guys use the red dot effectively..... I'm an old dog... looking at a new tricK!

So I'll pass

Somewhere Mas Ayoub has a good video on the subject .

 

[Marshal Tom]

Doug M. is so right. I was an open sight strong side guy for most of my life. I carried revolvers for my first ten years in LE and then went to a 1911 for probably 25+ years and love that platform. In the last few years I have gone to largely striker fired guns and lately to RDS sights on my carry guns.I still have many without them but there is a major advantage to having them over opened sights, especially at distance. You need to practice your presentation over and over again to get fast with it but once you do, there is no comparison. I shoot with some pretty high level Le shooters who have all switched over and all say that they would never go back to iron sights. I now hove them on two of my carry guns and practice with them weekly. I am sold on RDS's

 

[AJ]

I have an opinion, but rather than tell you what I think, suggest you go to the USPSA near you and shoot on the timer from the holster with what you have now. Then consider sight alternatives using targets 10 yds and beyond.

A dozen of us who went to dinner together after a state match casually discussed who was carrying what, now that the competition pistols were cased, and we were casually dressed for warm weather. All had compact pistols and 8 were .38 snubs.

We all had larger pistols in our vehicles; some with optics. I have noticed having a larger pistol and/or rifle in the vehicle is rather common in Oklahoma.

What is your age? I learned iron sights 60+ years ago. I learned Gunsite about 35 years ago and was more or less taught to teach it to Marines. Back then I was fairly quick with my draw and accuracy was pretty good. Now at 72, I will stick with what I know.

 

[robertrwalsh]

I am disinclined to put too much emphasis on something electronic that may, or may not, work when I need it. While true the various 'red dot" signs give a better, faster sight picture in poor light conditions if it doesn't work you may have a severe issue. I shoot Steel Challenge right now (as opposed to IDPA and IPSC which I have shot in the past) and am one of the few in the group that shoots a single-stack pistol or one with iron sights. I am confident that, if the stinky stuff hits the air circulation device what I am used to and what I have practiced and trained with will do the job. (I have only had to use a hand gun twice, both times during daylight, both times for dog attacks with a single "opponent". Both times the iron sights served me well, even on a relatively small moving target.)

(I am also on the far side of 70 and did my first serious handgun training at Gunsight close to 40 years ago. I have also trained with handguns with Jim Cirillo, Massad Ayoob and Chuck Taylor. I am both comfortable and confident with what I am familiar with.)

 

[Old cop]

I’m in my late 70s and was in more than one OIS during my 30 yrs. on the street. What I learned was I only had a split second to react, no time to “aim”, and hanging gadgets on my gun will only increase its bulk. Besides, my EDC is either a J Frame or LCP in a pocket holster. Anything bigger will only get left at home.