A note to newbies, like me!

[PastureOfMuppets]

we like pictures.
this one is a valid carry ammo concern.
it is caused by the round being repeatedly chambered in an auto. It is referred to as set back.
most seasoned handloaders know that the seating depth of a bullet has an effect on chamber pressure.
when the bullet gets driven into the case as in the picture, the pressure runs high, sometimes dangerously so.

my solution to this is two fold.
first, do not over handle your defensive arms.
any time you have your gun in your hands. you open up some statistical odds of a negligent discharge.
with enough frequency to multiply those statistical odds, an ND becomes an eventual certainty.

The amount of times I unload and reload defensive ammo is pretty high, so that top round gets replaced enough to raise eyebrows. I have to watch it pretty carefully.

Going by what you suggest, an ND is statistically high here. I'm more than aware of that and I run on some very strict rules.

Complacency is the father of all ND's.

I should have a double of my go to gun shortly, I want to get a couple of thousand rounds through it before it goes defacto defense and I can put this one on training, teaching and competing duty only.

 

[PastureOfMuppets]

In CA a CCW must be renewed every two years. At one renewal class we had 18 students. Out of those 18, only a few had fired their gun since the last class two years prior.

I am against mandatory training and at the same time that terrifies the **** out of me.

 

[venomballistics]

The amount of times I unload and reload defensive ammo is pretty high, so that top round gets replaced enough to raise eyebrows. I have to watch it pretty carefully.

Going by what you suggest, an ND is statistically high here. I'm more than aware of that and I run on some very strict rules.

Complacency is the father of all ND's.

I should have a double of my go to gun shortly, I want to get a couple of thousand rounds through it before it goes defacto defense and I can put this one on training, teaching and competing duty only.

I too recommend running a gun hard prior to adoption as a go to arm in any capacity. if they want to glitch, they may do so in the shakedown cruise. I also advise not cleaning it through the first 1500. try to make it choke.
Life gets dirty sometimes and the gun you need to draw might be full of molten gummi bears and spilled coffee.
I don't even want to think of what might get into a ladies purse carried piece. A practice I advise against, but you can always tell some women ... just not much.

Another layer of advantage to my policy of hands off gun management is its inherently uniform state of readiness.
It only takes a phone call in the middle of what your doing to leave a piece in some random state. When you return to it you could find it in condition 0 , condition 1, condition L6Z ...
the logical thing to do, as Im sure you know, is to clear the weapon.
but thats us. The rest of the world MAY go "I think I remember racking one into the chamber" holster it and carry on in condition 0... or with parts missing, or ...
I think I made the point.

I try to apply this principal to as much of my machinery as possible. especially my music gear.
when recording, I have a 16 track which involves processing several layers deep. and Im lucky if I get to carve out 5 minutes to set up. its very easy to pooch a take due to some odd effect applied to an input that you cant get rid of, or a band pass filter totally inappropriate for whats going to the track.
as a result at the end of a mix session I zero everything to achieve a ready state I can count on the next time I have 5 min or less to set up.
Simplicity is so underrated

 

[gm272gs]

...I don't do too much practice with them. @ $35 a box that would be a very expensive range trip...

If they are factory Speer Gold Dot, then the boxes are only 20 rounds each, I'll wager.

As an instructor, I tell people that this is not an area in which to be frugal. If you shoot five (5) boxes of this (100 rounds) and a single round malfunctions (failure to feed or eject) it is my opinion that you should not be staking your life on that round in that particular firearm.

Five boxes costs you only $175 for piece of mind and (better still) confidence. Confidence in one's abilities will often (in my experience, mind you) make the difference between hitting or missing.

 

[Arik]

You miss understand. I don't use carry ammo as practice ammo. I will put a few hundred to make sure it works and that it. On my normal range day I shot about 500 rounds, usually once a week. If I did that using Speer Gold dot I'd be very unhappy.

$20 for a 50 round box of LE 124gr +p?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

 

[LL617]

Which course specifically? Is he becoming an instructor or is he teaching you slowly?

He's teaching, since many in the class are new or fairly new to shooting.

 

[LL617]

Sorry, Smoke; thought it was obvious.

My point is that the instructor is presenting information that, while not patently false, is misleading and not based in fact. That seems to be a trend, sadly.

LL617, hope i did not offend you. Welcome to the Forum. You will learn a lot here.

Been here a little over a year now. I have already learned a lot. However, I still consider myself a newbie.

Someday, I hope to progress to where I can teach gun safety to others. A long way to go!

Also, the remarks made to change out the magazine where made by a previous CWP instructor, not the gentleman teaching the class now.

 

[LL617]

the first round fired may be the only one successfully fired in a fight due to possible malfunction or, you yourself getting shot and becoming incapacitated.

I borrowed this pic from a different thread .. as I think of this target, the more I kinda like it.
its oval zones represent the best places to put a bullet for effect.
As you practice, try to limit yourself to hits in these zones. The smaller the caliber, the more critical this becomes.
In fact, add a reduced sized oval to the center of each, and try to that.
at no time is accuracy ever a liability.

I had read, I will try to find the link, not to go for centermass but to go for a lung. Then, if necessary, the femoral artery.

 

[LL617]

I know it sounds like a dumb question, but not unrealistic. I know bunches who carry a gun, but have never actually fired it.

In CA a CCW must be renewed every two years. At one renewal class we had 18 students. Out of those 18, only a few had fired their gun since the last class two years prior.

When offspring, who work nights, got CWP, they also got the lecture that lack of practice made them flat out dangerous. I often send pictures of my range target to remind them to practice.

 

[LL617]

One more question: Do the kind of ND's you mentioned occur in revolvers?

 

[Rastoff]

I am against mandatory training and at the same time that terrifies the **** out of me.

I'm 100% on board with this statement.

I say it this way:
No license or training should be required to exercise a fundamental right guaranteed by the US Constitution. However, I believe it is incumbent on a person, who carries a gun (or any tool) for self-defense to seek proper training with that gun.

"Owning a gun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician." -Col Jeff Cooper

 

[Rastoff]

This will sound condescending, but I don't intend it that way. I think this is very important though...

I had read, I will try to find the link, not to go for centermass but to go for a lung. Then, if necessary, the femoral artery.

This is very poor advice.

The first shot is always at center mass. Why? First because it's the largest target. Aim small, miss small. So, you always want to pick the largest target presented. Second, this is generally where the vital organs are. Shooting toward a lung means you'll be aiming off center. The heart is in the center. If you miss the heart, you'll get a lung, but if you hit the heart, the fight is over.

Cutting the femoral artery is almost a guarantee that the person will die. However, it is a REALLY small target. Most of us can't shoot a group smaller than 2" at 7 yards under time pressure. How do you expect to hit a target that is smaller than 10mm(less than 1/2") while trying to protect yourself? AND, you have no idea where it is under the skin. So, hitting an artery in the leg is lucky at best and it still won't incapacitate the bad guy right away.

So, put these thoughts out of your mind. Concentrate on the center of the mass presented.

 

[venomballistics]

The low oval zones do not represent the femoral artery, but rather the hip joints.
If your caliber is adequate to do so, shattered bone is the result.
if they can't stand, they cannot fight.
the artery's just so happen to be in there too.

simple systems are best under pressure .
center of mass is the canonical zone to target, theres a lot going on in there.
First you have the heart, which most often will end the fight. you also have the lungs infringing upon this zone and a bonus chance of a ballistic spinal tap.
It don't matter how big, and or drugged up they are, a solid CNS hit will plant him.
The Mozambique drill (chest chest head) is engineered around this.
COM first because its the largest effective zone, followed by a direct CNS attempt if they are still standing.
In reality, where its difficult to become seasoned enough to know you'll keep your wits in a gunfight .. COM only is your best bet, with the alternate zones being targets of opportunity if things get protracted beyond three rounds and you happen to remember them.

 

[Rastoff]

if they can't stand, they cannot fight.

Unless they have a gun.

My comments were directed at LL617's and not the target.

I don't think the pelvic shot is bad. Just not a first priority.

 

[venomballistics]

it was LL who made the implication of the low ovals being arterial rather than skeletal. Thus, my clarification was directed there.
I don't always argue with ya Rast ... just usually

 

[ednblue]

ND can happen in revolvers - thinking that all chambers are empty, when there is one loaded.

 

[trooplewis]

Interesting thread, thanks for all the input.
It is much easier to avoid an NG with a revolver than an automatic, but smaller odds still mean that the possibility is there.

The odds of an NG are higher with a revolver when someone other than the owner handles it, since firing a revolver is usually more intuitive for those who don't own a firearm or have any training with one. Semi-auto pistols, especially if they have a safety or do not have a round chambered, are much harder for an inexperienced person to fire. Yes, I'll expect some flak for that statement, but it does make the gun safer in a neophyte's hands.

 

[LL617]

The low oval zones do not represent the femoral artery, but rather the hip joints.
If your caliber is adequate to do so, shattered bone is the result.
if they can't stand, they cannot fight.
the artery's just so happen to be in there too.

simple systems are best under pressure .
center of mass is the canonical zone to target, theres a lot going on in there.
First you have the heart, which most often will end the fight. you also have the lungs infringing upon this zone and a bonus chance of a ballistic spinal tap.
It don't matter how big, and or drugged up they are, a solid CNS hit will plant him.
The Mozambique drill (chest chest head) is engineered around this.
COM first because its the largest effective zone, followed by a direct CNS attempt if they are still standing.
In reality, where its difficult to become seasoned enough to know you'll keep your wits in a gunfight .. COM only is your best bet, with the alternate zones being targets of opportunity if things get protracted beyond three rounds and you happen to remember them.

A policeman told me that the one time somebody really shot at him, he heard a bullet breeze by his head. He returned fire and put the man down where he could be captured and arrested. In the following review session, the officer conducting he review asked him how many shots he had fired. The officer said he didn't know, maybe four or five.

He had actually emptied his clip. So, I know under stress unique things happen.

 

[venomballistics]

A policeman told me that the one time somebody really shot at him, he heard a bullet breeze by his head. He returned fire and put the man down where he could be captured and arrested. In the following review session, the officer conducting he review asked him how many shots he had fired. The officer said he didn't know, maybe four or five.

He had actually emptied his clip. So, I know under stress unique things happen.

we prefer the term magazine, or mag for short.
its one of the ways we spot the inexperienced.
running a gun dry under stress isn't at all uncommon.
one of the strangest I've seen was a friend of mine, fresh out of the USMC.
He figured he'd add a few guns to his collection, one of which was a 629.
I'd have thought the Marines would have made him recoil and blast callous, and at least a little pressure seasoned .... nope.

we all set up my range for a good old blastathon session.
multiple targets, a DOA car for firing from cover and a skeet trap to force transition between weapons.
we just loved to make guns to hot to touch while beating the snot out of ourselves.
We'd do anything to make it more challenging.
well it was his turn .. with that 629 he had for less than two weeks and full of hot 200G loads. The blast and recoil shook him.
the idea was to put two into each of three targets .. he fired all six at one, hitting once ... and he kept pulling the trigger.
"Click click click click" and kept right on clicking while he turned the gun to look down the barrel to see if anything was coming out.
I'm glad he never saw combat.
If thats what he'll do with a gun that might be a little more than he anticipated, in a controlled environment, I dread the possibility of what he'd do with lead traveling both ways.

 

[Rastoff]

"Click click click click" and kept right on clicking while he turned the gun to look down the barrel to see if anything was coming out.

This just goes to show that we all can use more training and practice.