AFT pistol stabilizing brace rule just came down.

That is a valid argument. I shook my head, too.

However, it is equally valid to argue that the ATF ruled that the braces were legal, millions were sold, and now the ATF has decided to change its mind. For money? Maybe. For political correctness? Likely.

BUT!

In pertinent part, Article I, Section 9, of the Constitution of the United States of America (some people don't like this document - ever wonder why?):

Section 9.

,,,

No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.,,,,

Emphasis added.



(c) Cornell Law

"Ex post facto is most typically used to refer to a criminal statute that punishes actions retroactively, thereby criminalizing conduct that was legal when originally performed. "

As the ATF cannot pass statutes one can argue that this rule is ineffective from the outset.

As ATF is a creature of Congress, and if Congress cannot pass such a law, then neither can the ATF, and since the act being described was deemed legal by the ATF they cannot now be heard to criminalize it. The 120 day free period doesn't make the rule "nicer" or "legal".

Full employment for lawyers................................:rolleyes:

Ex post facto doesn’t apply because owning an unregistered SBR is already illegal and has been for a long time. Just because a pistol with a brace wasn’t previously classified as an SBR, it is now and ATF can prosecute you accordingly. However, that’s not to say a judge won’t throw it out for reasons already mentioned.
 
I do not believe the OP is a moderator.

Correct. Which is why I asked a MODERATOR to change the title.
If you read the preceding posts to the reply you are quoting, you will see that it was in response to another person pointing out that the OP could change it. I was explaining that although he COULD I didn't think he WOULD. Which is why I asked a moderator to do it.
Make sense now? :)
 
There are potential affirmative defenses for those with pistol braces, going forward. Claims that they acted in good faith to obey the law and thought that previous ATF rulings meant they thought they were following the law.

If someone with a Sig brace was caught, he can say "I read the 2015 letter from the ATF that approved it as legal accessory, I assumed in good faith it was legal".

And why not? He's acting on the approval and authority of non other than the ATF.
 
There are potential affirmative defenses for those with pistol braces, going forward. Claims that they acted in good faith to obey the law and thought that previous ATF rulings meant they thought they were following the law.

If someone with a Sig brace was caught, he can say "I read the 2015 letter from the ATF that approved it as legal accessory, I assumed in good faith it was legal".

And why not? He's acting on the approval and authority of non other than the ATF.

He would certainly have a valid defense, which he would have to present IN COURT, after having been arrested, charged, bonded, etc. The case would likely be dismissed, but at great cost to the victim of this latest ATF trap.
 
I asked this question in the other thread as well:
Could I use this ruling to register a bunch of lowers as SBR's even if I don't own a brace? Alternatively, could I buy a cheap brace, take a pic of each lower wearing it, register them, then throw the brace away?
 
Cannot swing a dead cat these days without a bunch of Fudds chiming in.
They will eventually get to the thing you care about, and you will wonder where the rest of us are to help you out.

Yep. Quite a few can't see the big picture. This is more than just pistol braces. This is about a regulatory agency, which does not have the authority to create law but only to enforce it as written, being allowed to do so. And not only that, but in an inconsistent manner.

If congress wants to outlaw pistol braces, that is on them to pass legislation doing so. Not the ATF.
 
Yep. Quite a few can't see the big picture. This is more than just pistol braces. This is about a regulatory agency, which does not have the authority to create law but only to enforce it as written, being allowed to do so. And not only that, but in an inconsistent manner.

If congress wants to outlaw pistol braces, that is on them to pass legislation doing so. Not the ATF.

and if they don't, the sitting presiden't does'nt have the authority to make a call, and tell a regulatory agency to make them go away somehow.
 
Flood you elected reps, but first know who they are. :)

just sent out todays set of e-mails.

this will get you started on your first round for today. FPC mailer for example Demand action to stop the ATF'''s pistol brace rule! When you fill in your home address, it automatically finds your elected representatives.

Firearms Policy Coalition
Gun Owners of America
NRA-ILA
2nd Ammendment Foundation

all do pre-crafted mailers like this. GET ON THEIR MAILING LISTS AND LET YOUR VOICE BE HEARD DAILY1
 
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Cannot swing a dead cat these days without a bunch of Fudds chiming in.
They will eventually get to the thing you care about, and you will wonder where the rest of us are to help you out.

And yet, the so called "Fudds" are still the heart and best part of the gun culture.

In fact, the whole "Fudd" invention was almost certainly invented by anti gun people to help divide gun owners and get them to fight among themselves.

Keep your focus on where it needs to be. The opposition.
 
And yet, the so called "Fudds" are still the heart and best part of the gun culture.

In fact, the whole "Fudd" invention was almost certainly invented by anti gun people to help divide gun owners and get them to fight among themselves.

Keep your focus on where it needs to be. The opposition.

I'm a Fudd...and proudly so. I was labeled a Fudd because I think attending gun rights rally's wearing tactical gear and carrying an AR is a dim witted thing to do that does nothing to win anyone over. So they can swing dead cats and insults all they want...I do not defend gun rights for them, I ignore their insults and do it for the Fudds.
 
I'm a Fudd...and proudly so. I was labeled a Fudd because I think attending gun rights rally's wearing tactical gear and carrying an AR is a dim witted thing to do that does nothing to win anyone over. So they can swing dead cats and insults all they want...I do not defend gun rights for them, I ignore their insults and do it for the Fudds.

While I agree with you here, I believe Squidsix's original comment was pointing out how many "Fudds" will say they don't care about other folks gun rights as long as it doesn't affect them. They don't mind restrictions on bump stocks and braces b/c they don't use them, and fail to see the big picture, how it's a slippery slope that will eventually impact them, as well. We ALL need to defend gun rights for all of us. "We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately." B. Franklin
 
^ this one hundred percent. I totally agree that walking around in public with a rifle across your back, or open carrying your mac-ten at Walmart is idiotic.
But to assume that the folks following the law AND the previous interpretation by the ATF are “getting around the rules” is nonsense. Those rules should never have existed, and more draconian rules will not enrich our society nor make it “safe”
 
While I agree with you here, I believe Squidsix's original comment was pointing out how many "Fudds" will say they don't care about other folks gun rights as long as it doesn't affect them. They don't mind restrictions on bump stocks and braces b/c they don't use them, and fail to see the big picture, how it's a slippery slope that will eventually impact them, as well. We ALL need to defend gun rights for all of us. "We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately." B. Franklin

I don’t disagree with you.

I used to hunt but frankly don’t anymore for a variety of reasons from cost to loss of habitat to it just not having the challenge or satisfaction it used to. And the proliferation of slob hunters.

I have also shot service rifle matches for over 40 years as well as tactical rifle and handgun matches as well as small bore rifle and bullseye pistol matches.

Not surprisingly, I lean heavily in the AR direction with a number of AR-15s, a few Mini 14s, a Galil, an M1A, a BM-59, an M1 Garand, a few M1 carbines and an MP5. And I trimmed down a few years ago selling off my FALs, my SAR-8, my PSL and everything AK and SKS except for the Galil.

But none the less I have no tolerance for the tacticool, mall ninja, operator wanna be clowns who go on social media with their evil black rifle and tactical gear who then say something incredibly stupid like “I’m ready to use my <insert what ever firearm they have> to defend my right to < insert what ever phobia, prejudice, conspiracy theory, or something mundane like vinegar based barbecue>“.

That’s particularly bad as powerless young men see that kind of thing and see someone from their tribe. They see owning an “assault rifle” as a means of both belonging and having power. A very small percentage of those broken folks then take it one step farther and use that assault rifle to go out with a bang, choosing a means of suicide that lets them have power over others.

It isn’t what the mall ninjas intend when they post those pictures and stupid statements but intentional or not it’s irresponsible, sends the wrong message about gun owners, and does play a role in the very small percentage of mass shootings that are done with “assault rifles”.

I also have no tolerance for slob hunters who might in some cases bother to sight in their rifle, before going off in the woods semi sober and blowing a leg off a deer. They also are irresponsible and send a negative message about gun ownership. Showing social media pictures of their kills are also often perceived as “Bambi’s dead momma” and referring to it as “harvesting” rather than hunting actually sounds worse to the non hunting public.


In both cases, as a moderate in the middle of those gun community extremes I keep asking:
- why am I expected to support the extremes; rather than
- those extremes being expected to get back in the boat with the majority of us; and
- stop shooting holes in the bottom of the only boat we all have;
- with their clown car efforts to defend their right to whatever by displaying egregiously irresponsible and insensitive behavior that offends and energizes the anti gun public and the moderates that stand between them and losing our gun rights.
 
I don’t disagree with you.

I used to hunt but frankly don’t anymore for a variety of reasons from cost to loss of habitat to it just not having the challenge or satisfaction it used to. And the proliferation of slob hunters.

I have also shot service rifle matches for over 40 years as well as tactical rifle and handgun matches as well as small bore rifle and bullseye pistol matches.

Not surprisingly, I lean heavily in the AR direction with a number of AR-15s, a few Mini 14s, a Galil, an M1A, a BM-59, an M1 Garand, a few M1 carbines and an MP5. And I trimmed down a few years ago selling off my FALs, my SAR-8, my PSL and everything AK and SKS except for the Galil.

But none the less I have no tolerance for the tacticool, mall ninja, operator wanna be clowns who go on social media with their evil black rifle and tactical gear who then say something incredibly stupid like “I’m ready to use my <insert what ever firearm they have> to defend my right to < insert what ever phobia, prejudice, conspiracy theory, or something mundane like vinegar based barbecue>“.

That’s particularly bad as powerless young men see that kind of thing and see someone from their tribe. They see owning an “assault rifle” as a means of both belonging and having power. A very small percentage of those broken folks then take it one step farther and use that assault rifle to go out with a bang, choosing a means of suicide that lets them have power over others.

It isn’t what the mall ninjas intend when they post those pictures and stupid statements but intentional or not it’s irresponsible, sends the wrong message about gun owners, and does play a role in the very small percentage of mass shootings that are done with “assault rifles”.

I also have no tolerance for slob hunters who might in some cases bother to sight in their rifle, before going off in the woods semi sober and blowing a leg off a deer. They also are irresponsible and send a negative message about gun ownership. Showing social media pictures of their kills are also often perceived as “Bambi’s dead momma” and referring to it as “harvesting” rather than hunting actually sounds worse to the non hunting public.


In both cases, as a moderate in the middle of those gun community extremes I keep asking:
- why am I expected to support the extremes; rather than
- those extremes being expected to get back in the boat with the majority of us; and
- stop shooting holes in the bottom of the only boat we all have;
- with their clown car efforts to defend their right to whatever by displaying egregiously irresponsible and insensitive behavior that offends and energizes the anti gun public and the moderates that stand between them and losing our gun rights.

The ship left the dock and you stood there with your eyes closed until it was out of sight. With all due respect you're an example of what's wrong with ALL of the over 40 crowd of gun owners. After all they're the ones who laid down for this stuff 55 years ago so why expect them to be part of the solution today!
The baby boomer generations are also known as the "slave generation." Raised in the post-WW2 world to do exactly as directed by "the man." Grow up, get a job, do as you're told, put your head down and collect your pension. The slave generation sat by and said nothing as the 1968 GCA was enacted. They stood silent for the original AWB and mag ban. The SG has basically let the politicians steal 90% of the 2A all because that retirement check meant more than their 2A freedom! Oh, they didn't just give up 2A rights, no they gave up plenty of 1A, 4A, 5A, 8A, and 14A rights being good little citizens and now presume to be PROUD of having handed over the keys to the ever-encroaching government!

When I see American CITIZENS, both men and women, standing PROUD with an AR draped over their shoulder and a tac-vest with magazines I'm ENCOURAGED that perhaps, the country WE sold down the river by NOT standing up in 1968, or 1984, or as each of these draconian anti-2A laws was passed, has risen up and will not "go gently into that goodnight!"
It was the gun grabber's overreach that targeted the AR15 to the point where every social miscreant knows exactly what rifle to obtain before going on a shooting spree! The media and the gun grabbers - with the WILLING and EAGER support of citizens who "didn't care" about ARs have spent decades vilifying the rifle to such exclusion that NO spree shootings today are carried out with any other form of rifle! Thank you Baby Boomers!
And now, the baby boomer is "insulted" to see young men and women on the street, openingly showing support for gun rights...not just gun rights, but AR15 rights!
Perhaps had the government spent the last 50 years insuring everyone had a nice, cushy pension and guaranteed, well-paying job, the "slave generation" would have continued, but instead, the military industrial complex got GREEDY, and the politicians focused more on funneling CASH into their own hidden accounts than worrying about a sleeping populace, so now we have the generations left to make it any way they can...and the first thing they're NOT going to do is become wage-slaves for the man - which baby boomers just hate, and the second thing they're GOING to do is turn out in the street and express their opinion on a country that spends over a trillion dollars a year on military contracts, while the roads, bridges, dams, and power transfer stations crumble, and they'll leave the schools UNHARDENED to make it easy to play politics with spree killers...all while demanding law-abiding citizens just line up like the SHEEPLE of 1945-1970 and hand over the guns! Only, those people aren't running things any more! And thank God for it!
 
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The ship left the dock and you stood there with your eyes closed until it was out of sight. With all due respect you're an example of what's wrong with ALL of the over 40 crowd of gun owners. After all they're the ones who laid down for this $h1t 55 years ago so why expect them to be part of the solution today!
The baby boomer generations are also known as the "slave generation." Raised in the post-WW2 world to do exactly as directed by "the man." Grow up, get a job, do as you're told, put your head down and collect your pension. The slave generation sat by and said nothing as the 1968 GCA was enacted. They stood silent for the original AWB and mag ban. The SG has basically let the politicians steal 90% of the 2A all because that retirement check meant more than their 2A freedom! Oh, they didn't just give up 2A rights, no they gave up plenty of 1A, 4A, 5A, 8A, and 14A rights being good little citizens and now presume to be PROUD of having handed over the keys to the ever-encroaching government!

When I see American CITIZENS, both men and women, standing PROUD with an AR draped over their shoulder and a tac-vest with magazines I'm ENCOURAGED that perhaps, the country WE sold down the river by NOT standing up in 1968, or 1984, or as each of these draconian anti-2A laws was passed, has risen up and will not "go gently into that goodnight!"
It was the gun grabber's overreach that targeted the AR15 to the point where every social miscreant knows exactly what rifle to obtain before going on a shooting spree! The media and the gun grabbers - with the WILLING and EAGER support of citizens who "didn't care" about ARs have spent decades vilifying the rifle to such exclusion that NO spree shootings today are carried out with any other form of rifle! Thank you Baby Boomers!
And now, the baby boomer is "insulted" to see young men and women on the street, openingly showing support for gun rights...not just gun rights, but AR15 rights!
Perhaps had the government spent the last 50 years insuring everyone had a nice, cushy pension and guaranteed, well-paying job, the "slave generation" would have continued, but instead, the military industrial complex got GREEDY, and the politicians focused more on funneling CASH into their own hidden accounts than worrying about a sleeping populace, so now we have the generations left to make it any way they can...and the first thing they're NOT going to do is become wage-slaves for the man - which baby boomers just hate, and the second thing they're GOING to do is turn out in the street and express their opinion on a country that spends over a trillion dollars a year on military contracts, while the roads, bridges, dams, and power transfer stations crumble, and they'll leave the schools UNHARDENED to make it easy to play politics with spree killers...all while demanding law-abiding citizens just line up like the SHEEPLE of 1945-1970 and hand over the guns! Only, those people aren't running things any more! And thank God for it!

" they'll leave the schools UNHARDENED to make it easy to play politics with spree killers"

While making good use of deaths at schools!
I do not care to be labeled an irresponsive baby boomer at all, so please slow down a minute. Why blame our past generations?
Look at Ukraine. " while the roads, bridges, dams, and power transfer stations crumble," all without proper protection. Had they spent trillions of dollars on military spending, maybe their infrastructure would not be as it is now.

Our fight is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities, against powers, against spiritual wickedness in high places, against the rulers of darkness in this world. Did the best I could without copying and pasting from the Bible.

That said, I don't see how a government has the power to use an agency for doing their dirty work. ATF cannot make laws. The government must pass laws and try to keep people from standing against us. Our government!

Understand your frustrations. I carry in Wal-Mart on the occasions I have a gun with me. It is much safer than in the car nowadays. Criminals are being cut loose as fast as our LEOs make arrests. Many, very many, of them have full-autos. They are used, not buried somewhere. I, personally, do not think of it as sane to try and disarm a populace. Take care.
 
The ship left the dock and you stood there with your eyes closed until it was out of sight. With all due respect you're an example of what's wrong with ALL of the over 40 crowd of gun owners. After all they're the ones who laid down for this $h1t 55 years ago so why expect them to be part of the solution today!
The baby boomer generations are also known as the "slave generation." Raised in the post-WW2 world to do exactly as directed by "the man." Grow up, get a job, do as you're told, put your head down and collect your pension. The slave generation sat by and said nothing as the 1968 GCA was enacted. They stood silent for the original AWB and mag ban. The SG has basically let the politicians steal 90% of the 2A all because that retirement check meant more than their 2A freedom! Oh, they didn't just give up 2A rights, no they gave up plenty of 1A, 4A, 5A, 8A, and 14A rights being good little citizens and now presume to be PROUD of having handed over the keys to the ever-encroaching government!

When I see American CITIZENS, both men and women, standing PROUD with an AR draped over their shoulder and a tac-vest with magazines I'm ENCOURAGED that perhaps, the country WE sold down the river by NOT standing up in 1968, or 1984, or as each of these draconian anti-2A laws was passed, has risen up and will not "go gently into that goodnight!"
It was the gun grabber's overreach that targeted the AR15 to the point where every social miscreant knows exactly what rifle to obtain before going on a shooting spree! The media and the gun grabbers - with the WILLING and EAGER support of citizens who "didn't care" about ARs have spent decades vilifying the rifle to such exclusion that NO spree shootings today are carried out with any other form of rifle! Thank you Baby Boomers!
And now, the baby boomer is "insulted" to see young men and women on the street, openingly showing support for gun rights...not just gun rights, but AR15 rights!
Perhaps had the government spent the last 50 years insuring everyone had a nice, cushy pension and guaranteed, well-paying job, the "slave generation" would have continued, but instead, the military industrial complex got GREEDY, and the politicians focused more on funneling CASH into their own hidden accounts than worrying about a sleeping populace, so now we have the generations left to make it any way they can...and the first thing they're NOT going to do is become wage-slaves for the man - which baby boomers just hate, and the second thing they're GOING to do is turn out in the street and express their opinion on a country that spends over a trillion dollars a year on military contracts, while the roads, bridges, dams, and power transfer stations crumble, and they'll leave the schools UNHARDENED to make it easy to play politics with spree killers...all while demanding law-abiding citizens just line up like the SHEEPLE of 1945-1970 and hand over the guns! Only, those people aren't running things any more! And thank God for it!

A few points in response to your….commentary.

1. I was three and a half when GCA ‘68 was enacted, so yeah, it’s all my fault. I am almost literally the last baby boomer, and yet in 1968 the oldest baby boomer was only 22 years of age. Baby boomers were a small minority and I’m highly confident there wasn’t a single one in the US house or senate in 1968.

A known fact is that S&W, Colt, and other hand gun and to a lesser extent rifle manufacturers were big proponents of GCA ‘68 and actually drafted and lobbied much of the language around the handgun restrictions in order to cut out much of the foreign competition.

Again, the folks leading that charge, as well as the politicians who voted it in, and the voters who left them in office afterwords were all “greatest generation”. Does the generation that did it change anything or mean anything? No it doesn’t.

Your being off an entire generation in your accusation does. Try to stick with facts rather than emotion.

2. I was thirty when the AWB of 1994 passed and I watched as the NRA through us under the bus in exchange for vague promises for guaranteed hunting access on public lands. They haven’t seen a dime of my money since.

I also would not have voted for any of my senators of representatives that voted for it, except none of them did. Don’t blame my home state.

3. The AWB of 1994 was strongly promoted and lobbied for by a former president who is still mistakenly regarded as a saint and a pro gun advocate when he clearly was not, either as governor or president. He also signed the Hughes Amendment to the AOPA even though it was inserted at the 11th hour with no debate on the floor.

4. We currently have folks in leadership positions who say things like “I did it one and I can do it again”. I think they are mistaken and have certainly forgotten that when the AWB of 1994 was passed, the house and senate, both held by the same party almost continuously since the Great Depression both flipped in the 1996 elections and left the other party in control of both houses for most of the next 25 years.

That isn’t indicative of people who are willing and eager to support folks who didn’t care about ARs.

5. I do agree with you about greed and what’s happened since. In the first election after the 1929 crash, the house and senate flipped when the American people demanded progressive legislation to rein in the politicians and business leaders who drove us over the financial cliff in 1929 due to greed and totally unrestrained capitalism. What resulted was 60 years of progressive legislation with with greater investment and financial guard rails, a much more robust social safety net and an economy with a much greater focus on jobs and livable family sustaining wages. That was something the great depression raised “greatest generation” saw as important.

Not surprisingly, as things improved for the middle class and poverty rates declined, it led to a long slow decline in crime rates and in particular violent crime rates. That reached an inflection point about a decade after the AWB. That didn’t happen as the ban expired. It happened because of the flipped congress in 1996, after which those safety nets and jobs based economics were replaced by greed and removal of regulation on investment and consequences for moving jobs and profits offshore.

Life got worse for the average person and in particular for the class of working poor that was created. And crime rates went up.

Both sides are at fault as one only sees guns as the problem and the other only sees unrestrained capitalism and government bail outs for the banking, housing, and investment crashes their short term focus creates as the priority.

And yet we vote for them. We get the government we deserve and they stay in power because they get way to many people stirred up with emotional arguments and divide and conquer by telling one group the other group wants to take their rights away from them, while sticking it to both.

So please re-direct your righteous anger at the real target.
 
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