are mp sport 2 rifles sub moa capable ?

[Maddmax]

I hear this a lot, but I don't agree with it. The fundamentals are the same with optics or irons. How is "mastering" irons the right way to go?

BANG !!! You have an EMP burst. ALL and EVERYTHING electronic has just become useless. Your red dot scope is now a dead battery holder with a window. Your wristwatch even has a black screen along with your cell phone. Got a candle or oil lamp ? Your flashlight is dead too. Drop or bang around that high $$$ scope, soak it in the freezing rain, cook it in the hot sun and see how long it holds up and holds anything close to a zero. Cracked glass, loose the seal... I've yet to see a scope last forever, they eventually wear out or at best DO loose there accuracy to some degree over time and use no matter what you paid or who made it. I've never seen a repair kit for fixing scopes.

NOW you are back to basics and those BUIS you never quite figured out how to use or ever even zeroed. Mastering your BUIS, if you can see it, you can still hit it at "almost" ANY range. IF you can get that broken scope off the weapon.

 

[Maddmax]

After safety, this is first and foremost for an instructor. I do this with Boy Scouts that have never shot before. Let them shoot with the scope. Let them shoot with the red dot. Once they are making hits and start getting cocky, which they always do , challenge them to do the same with the irons. Makes for a good teaching moment.

I'm old school and learned from the ground up in the Boy Scouts. Our Troup was quite large, all the Fathers were VERY active and most were WWII or Korean Vets from all the different branches of service. We didn't have scopes. Just bolt action, single shot, iron sights. Remington rifles if I remember right. A chalk board to draw and show how everything was suppose to line up with the sights.

We had a rifle fixed on a box/rest that wouldn't move, sitting on a table, bolt removed. It was aimed at a lit wall about 10-15+ yards away. The "shooter" would sit at the rifle like he was going to shoot. Another person would be standing at the wall with a target, small hole punched in the center (X) of the target and a pencil in his hand. A white piece of paper would be taped to the wall in the same line of sight as the fixed rifle sights. The person at the wall would place the target off center, against the paper already taped to the wall. The shooter would talk to the other guy at the wall, telling him where to move the target so the punched hole would line up with the iron sights of the rifle. Then the guy at the wall would take the pencil and mark where the hole (X) of the target was on the white sheet of paper. This was repeated 3-5 times per shooter. Worked quite well to teach how to sight with iron sights AND also at the same time, the value of good grouping. Needless to say, at Summer Camp, we took all the top shooting awards hands down every year. Some were close, but we never got beat. ALL with single shot, bolt action, Iron Sights. Back then scopes were too expensive.

Taught classes the same way for years. It's also how my kids and grandkids have learned to shoot.

 

[Rastoff]

BANG !!! You have an EMP burst. ALL and EVERYTHING electronic has just become useless.

Really? This is your reasoning for learning iron sights first? Dude, your tin foil hat is on too tight.

 

[Rick_A]

Do you know how to drive a vehicle with a manual transmission? I may choose to drive an automatic as my daily driver, but if I had to use my old CJ-5 as a daily driver, I could... because I know how to use a manual transmission.

Same thing with a rifle. Optics make it easier, but if I know how to use irons, I can fall back to them if I ever needed to... more rounded skills makes for a better shooter.

I would agree. It's a basic marksmanship skill.

If it's a specialized target or varmint rig that's another story.

It never hurts to have both.

I've had a few optics fail and batteries in red dots seem to go dead just before you need them, but I've yet to break any set of iron sights.

 

[otisrush]

For me using irons reminds me shooting is a 3-dimensional problem - not a 2-dimensional problem. When using irons and I can see how a certain action moves the muzzle, and I have to worry about left-to-right movement, etc. I get an overall image in my head of what I need to do from steadiness, calmness perspective to get a good shot.

With a scope on a paper target (which is what optic shooting is for me) everything is very 2-dimensional. We figure if the reticle is in the right place and we squeeze the trigger all will be automatic - like a smart bomb. (At least the scope has the potential to have the shooter perceive it that way.)

So I use irons to remind me of my shooting process and (hopefully) put it in muscle memory - so when I'm on the scope - I'm doing basically the same thing. Now, I don't have irons on my AR. For me pulling out my 70 yr old Remington 511 .22 can bring me back to reality quickly on the fundamentals of good bench shooting.

OR

 

[rodney winston]

even in ww2 snipers used scopes....my old redfield is 25 years old and has lost seal so temp changes make it fog internal but leave it outside overnight to get acclomated to temp and it still holds zero and ill try not to throw it down steps and run it over before i need it...but everyone should be able to shoot irons so i see the importance of either sighting system

 

[Maddmax]

Really? This is your reasoning for learning iron sights first? Dude, your tin foil hat is on too tight.

I think you just like to argue about everything and this is your normal response.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I can only imagine what's running though a newbies' mind while reading through this thread.

My advice to newbies-- When you get your Sport home, read the manual. Learn the parts, how the rifle operates and safety. Field strip and assemble a few times. Clean and lube. Find a source on the Net (lots of good vids) and read up on how to use a sling and buy one... cheap one is just fine for learning. Play with it at home. Buy 1k rounds of cheap ammo and go learn how to use that Sport with the irons you just bought. Once you got that minimum under your belt you'll be able to ask more intelligent questions and make more intelligent choices about what other kind of sighting system, if any, and other tactical doodads is best suited for you.

 

[tcon]

After spending time shooting my main A2 carbine (integral carry handle w/ irons), my son took to those sights and asked if there were AR15 aperture-type sights available for his Ruger 10/22 which had a scope on it. I found TechSights so we removed the scope and put on the TSR100 set. He says, "Irons are more fun."

 

[cyphertext]

After spending time shooting my main A2 carbine (integral carry handle w/ irons), my son took to those sights and asked if there were AR15 aperture-type sights available for his Ruger 10/22 which had a scope on it. I found TechSights so we removed the scope and put on the TSR100 set. He says, "Irons are more fun."

Now add a GI cotton sling and you have a "liberty training rifle". If you haven't, check out Appleseedinfo.org... a weekend of basic shooting instruction with a little history thrown in that you and your son would enjoy.

 

[CATI1835]

Just curious, why is this even a discussion? Neither the AR or AK platform was designed as a target (sub MOA) platform. They are battle rifles, designed to hit torso sized targets at 200-300 yards. Trying to make them sniper rifles is like trying to turn my pickup truck into 18 wheeler - if I just add a couple of more after market add-ons, I can haul that 52' trailer cross country.

If you want a target rifle, buy a target rifle. You would probably be better off financially too. Some of those AR add-ons can get quite expensive and still not meet your expectations. Besides, then you would have two rifles, More is always better. JMO.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Maybe part of the reason for discussing precision accuracy is that a lot of guys don't have much opportunity to shoot at anything but paper so they naturally drift into that direction.

For me, the last time my AR saw paper and a bench was when zeroing my Aimpoint. Other than that, offhand steel. Agonizing over group size with an AR never appealed to me. Other guys love it. Heck, a lot of guys at our club never hold the rifle in their hands other than carrying it to the bench and back to the car.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I'm with MadMax on the EMP thing.

An EMP is probably the only thing that would ever cause my Aimpoint to fail.

If ya got an EOTech... best get to practicing wth those irons if the weatherman is calling for higher than usual humidity or rain.

 

[Maddmax]

I'm with MadMax on the EMP thing.

An EMP is probably the only thing that would ever cause my Aimpoint to fail.

If ya got an EOTech... best get to practicing wth those irons if the weatherman is calling for higher than usual humidity or rain.

That's why I have mine co-witnessed Now I might need a picatinny umbrella.

I had cataract surgery a few years back and had new lens put in both eyes. My surgeon asked if I wanted better long distance or short distance sight. He also shoots and hunts. I went for the long distance and can see my sights just fine on my handguns or rifles. But my arms are a bit short for reading without glasses if the print is too small.

Hearing is good. I can still hear the cling of hitting steal with iron sights.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

That's why I have mine co-witnessed Now I might need a picatinny umbrella.

I had cataract surgery a few years back and had new lens put in both eyes. My surgeon asked if I wanted better long distance or short distance sight. He also shoots and hunts. I went for the long distance and can see my sights just fine on my handguns or rifles. But my arms are a bit short for reading without glasses if the print is too small.

Hearing is good. I can still hear the cling of hitting steal with iron sights.

When I was in my 40s I began to notice the Equal and Splenda packages at the restaurant all had very poor ink work on the back....

Since then I've found 1x red dots and long distance glasses a great combination.

 

[blues7]

I only need reading glasses indoors...I'm still okay in natural light outdoors.
It's only a matter of time though...

 

[Rastoff]

I think you just like to argue about everything and this is your normal response.

No, I asked a reasonable question and you responded with a ridiculous answer. Of course I thought it was a sarcastic comment from you and not serious. So, I responded in kind.

I asked why people thought it was valuable to learn iron sights first. I wanted to spark some good conversation about the intricacies of shooting a rifle. Specifically, the differences between iron sights, red dots and magnified glass.

Yes, you're absolutely right. If an EMP hits, and your red dot is outside a safe, it's likely that it will be damaged. Of course under that situation there will be a lot more to worry about than a dead red dot (irons and glass will still work).

Do you really think an EMP, i.e. nuclear war, is even in the top 90% of what we should be planning for?

 

[Maddmax]

Rastoff,

I stand with my first response.

I think you just like to argue about everything and this is your normal response.

There is also a higher risk of a Solar Flare. We HAVE had those in the past and they did a fair amount of damage back then to the few electric systems we did have at the time. That would also have the same effect as an EMP blast only more so now a days with all the electronics.

A safe isn't going to protect anything electronic. You need a completely sealed Faraday Cage to protect anything electronic. Look it up.

 

[blues7]

Rastoff,

I stand with my first response.

I think you just like to argue about everything and this is your normal response.

Since this has been brought up twice now I thought I might inject a bit of my own personal experience which may be germane.

In a thread about my disabled M&P15 TS, Rastoff offered a comment or two which due to their brevity and (perceived) tone caused me to take umbrage.

Later in that same thread he provided a very cogent, at length explanation, supported by images, that shared very useful info to folks like myself who are just getting acquainted with the platform (even if it might not necessarily prove to be in lockstep with what the S&W technicians found during the warranty repair process).

When I wrote Rastoff via PM to thank him and apologize for the rocky start we got off to in the thread, he waved it aside and graciously said that that was the way of the net, communication was often misread or misunderstood and that sometimes those who appear at loggerheads often get past it and go on to become good forum members and friends.

I say this because despite his apparent irascibility, in my own experience Doug has proven to be one of the most helpful members on this site along with the likes of Chattanooga Phil and John aka JaPes .

Sorry that I felt this aside was necessary but since Doug has been called out twice, and I can understand why from personal experience, I thought the flip side of the coin was worth mentioning.

 

[CATI1835]

This has drifted way too far off topic from the OP.