bodyguard 380 frame rails

[Fastbolt]

Thanks for the inside info, Fastbolt. I really like this little gun, and again, do plan on buying more. Of the 380s I've shot, this one handles the best. I hear that Galloway Precision will be making a machined firing pin and will be following that as well.

Cheers-

De nada.

FWIW, just because something is MIM, or even "machined" from forged steel, that doesn't necessarily mean it's good or bad, you know. The design and function have to be taken into consideration, as well as the manufacturing process and quality of the materials.

As a firearms instructor and armorer I've had my fair share of opportunity to see more "less quality", worn, damaged and broken parts which were forged or cast steel, than I have those made by the MIM process (and I've seen a LOT of MIM parts in guns).

Also, consider that the design revision and improvement of the M&P firing pin involved it becoming a MIM part. It was the original machined part that exhibited a small number of breakages at the rear of the striker head.

Good quality MIM is fine for its intended use (and they've carefully considered the applications for which its used). It also allows for much more precision and better tolerances in a more easily made part, too. I remember hearing in the S&W revolver armorer class that making older machined revolver hammers required something like 7 machines, operated by machinists. Time intensive, and not exactly inexpensive from the labor perspective, either.

We were told that MIM revolver sears were close to being 90% drop-in parts in New Style revolvers. Nice. The last time I had to replace a hammer sear in an older J-frame, it required a bit of fitting at the top and bottom. Not something I'd care to do all the time.

 

[3dots]

Totally on board with what you're saying. My main concern with MIM is using it for a barrel. I feel confident that it's not going to pop open in someones hand, it's still rated for +P pressures. My concern is the bore itself and whether or not it will foul quicker. Is porosity of MIM a player? Will the rifling lose its definition quicker?

 

[Boris B]

Well I'm glad S&W has "resolved " all the issues with the BG.

My BG was test fired by S&W on 2/20/13.

My firing pin broke within the first month.

But S&W has resolved all those issues, I guess mine just slipped by some how. Darn my luck.. Thank goodness I noticed it at home.. Humm, I wonder how many BG owners are totally unaware this issue even exist? Would be awful bad to find out about it at a bad time wouldn't it.. Yeah , that Life time warranty would do them a lot of good then ...

I am guessing it is those same engineers who thought and still think the MIM firing pin is great that think the MIM barrel is great as well..

Further hint.. If anyone really thinks it was a "small number" of firing pins that suffered casualties you might want to look up an old friend named Google..
The gun forums are littered with accounts of owners having this problem. many had multiple instances reported.
Few my ***..

 

[Fastbolt]

S&W owns the molds used to make their MIM parts, even though the MIM production is done by a MIM house (in the US). I was told that owning the very expensive MIM molds allows them to have better control over the quality of the MIM parts manufacturing.

Also, MIM parts aren't of "lesser quality" than cast or forged parts. The hardening of the parts is good. I'd not lose sleep worrying about a MIM .380 barrel wearing out fast enough to matter.

Then again, there's still folks who like to opine that through-hardened broach cut stainless barrels are less strong than zone tempered carbon steel barrels, or hammer forged barrels.

If you can afford to "shoot-out" a barrel of one of the service/defensive pistol, it's probably going to cost far, far more money for ammo than most of us could afford to buy.

I haven't asked about the details for the change, or how much testing they did before making the changeover to a MIM barrel, but S&W engineers usually do a fair amount of R&D and stress testing before making major changes.

 

[Boris B]

Bla bla bla bla... SO what. Not a single thing you have regurgitated means anything to the fact that the BG has a firing pin breakage issue. Does it matter who owns the molds? Does it matter how much they cost? If the part in question has a history of failing? There is an issue there and all the glowing rhetoric in the world is not going to make a bit of difference.
All it shows is that S&W is trying to ignore the issue in public in HOPES it will go away.

If I ever have to jump out of a plane I will be sure to look that my parachute doesn't say Manufactured by S&W on it.. Although I am sure they would have a lifetime warranty on that as well..

And here is another hint.

Opinion does not = fact.
.

 

[Fastbolt]

Well I'm glad S&W has "resolved " all the issues with the BG.

My BG was test fired by S&W on 2/20/13.

My firing pin broke within the first month.

But S&W has resolved all those issues, I guess mine just slipped by some how. Darn my luck.. Thank goodness I noticed it at home.. Humm, I wonder how many BG owners are totally unaware this issue even exist? Would be awful bad to find out about it at a bad time wouldn't it.. Yeah , that Life time warranty would do them a lot of good then ...

I am guessing it is those same engineers who thought and still think the MIM firing pin is great that think the MIM barrel is great as well..

Further hint.. If anyone really thinks it was a "small number" of firing pins that suffered casualties you might want to look up an old friend named Google..
The gun forums are littered with accounts of owners having this problem. many had multiple instances reported.
Few my ***..

"Littered with accounts", huh?

Yes, I'm familiar with the online reports of broken firing pins.

I'm also familiar with how sometimes information related online may not be the most exact or accurate (let alone factual). I've had more than enough opportunity to have someone bring me a gun, telling me that such & such part was broken ... only to examine it and discover it wasn't what they were thinking at all. It happens.

Also, just because a new gun may be test-fired at a certain date, the only thing you can really know about it is that was when it was test-fired. It may not mean it contains all the latest revised parts, as they typically continue using existing parts while revised parts are incorporated into inventories. (Unless, of course, it involves an actual problem identified and handled as a Recall.)

For example, they continued to use the original M&P striker assemblies, slide stop assemblies and extractors in the M&P pistol line, changing over to the new parts at various times within the different models. It wasn't "overnight". (FWIW, both striker assemblies are still being illustrated in the last armorer manual, as there are a LOT of M&P's still running just fine with the original strikers ... but they did feel it possible to make the part more robust, and better able to withstand the efforts of some owners who liked to dry-fire a LOT.)

Bear in mind that as much as the issue may have been discussed online, it obviously didn't involve ALL of the BG380's produced (or even a significant number of them, from what I've been told at different times). Yes, they identified a revision they felt was a good change.

Of the less than a dozen guys I personally know who own and use BG380's, only ONE of them has experienced a broken firing pin. It broke very quickly, but the replacement firing pin (from last year) is still working just fine. I can't say that if I'd known another 100 or 1000 guys/gals with BG380's that I'd have encountered more firing pin breakages, but neither can I say I would have, either.

BTW, did you let them repair/replace the broken firing pin in your BG380? When they do, go out and shoot the snot out of it (using good quality ammo), and the let us know how it's doing.

FWIW, most LE agencies I've known of usually pull guns if they identify a problem, or even a perceived problem. (Remember the incident with LAPD, where they decertified about 3K personally owned/authorized G21's due to some scattered reports of light-strikes?)

Last I heard, LAPD hasn't pulled or decertified the BG380 because of a concern over broken firing pins (or MIM barrels blowing up), and their folks have apparently bought enough of them for any "trend" to have emerged and been identified by now.

I'm not saying that things don't happen every now and again with any machine, including revolvers and semiauto pistols. That's the nature of machinery.

I won't bore you with the details of the late Gen3 Glock 9mm I bought that exhibited consistent erratic ejection issues with an assortment of ammo (standard pressure , +P & +P+ loads). Nothing at all like my older similar model. As a Glock armorer, I think I went through 4 extractors, 5 ejectors and 2 RSA's ... and found and dressed a burred edge on the slide's extra recess ... before I finally got the gun up and running in what I consider a normal manner. Now it's fine. (The next step would have been to return the gun to the company for replacement of the slide, and/or the whole gun.)

Sometimes things happen ... and it's not like Glock or S&W are exactly new kids on the block, right?

I haven't recertified as a Sig pistol armorer, but they were on their 2nd .45 extractor design for the 220 (necessitated by the solid slide) when I went through the class last time, and it was having problems in some guns (supposedly due to the pre-tensioning issues, and it being a use-once part, it had to be replaced if ever removed), and since then they've made 2 more revision/design changes to the .45 extractor.

Every once in a while, things may happen that require attention and correction.

 

[Fastbolt]

Bla bla bla bla... SO what....
All it shows is that S&W is trying to ignore the issue in public in HOPES it will go away.

Uh, if you say so. I stopped going out of my way to try and change the strong opinions of other folks many years ago.

And here is another hint.

Opinion does not = fact.
.

No disagreement on that.


So, did you have the BG380 repaired or not? If so, did the new FP work as designed?

If not, let them know they need to make it right.

Or, trade it in on something else. Really. Lots of other gun companies and guns on the market.

Best regards.

 

[tzb]

fastbolt: thank you for the great information and also for staying civil in the face of hostility.

 

[JDP530]

I put a note on another thread looking for an answer as to why my new BG had so many fail-to-fire rounds today. Each round did fire with second pull of trigger. I put 50 rds thru the gun last week and about 100 today but i must have had a dozen FTF rounds. Thanks,

 

[Oldtrader3]

What brand and type of ammo are you using?

 

[jstanfield103]

Fastbolt, thanks for all the info, it was very good reading. I have had a previous BG380 and sold it. My mistake so I purchased another one Love the gun. I have experienced 0 firing problems with both of mine BG380's. But that being said I will replace the firing pin with one from Galloway Precision when it comes available, course I will keep the original for warranty work if anything else ever goes wrong with the gun. I have no problem with any MIM parts Ruger has proven that MIM parts work well several years ago. I polished my MIM barrel up and it looks great, I appreciate the info on the SS and Blued frame rails. Mine has the Carbon frame rails. I will never make the mistake of trading this one off for another gun, I missed it to much when it was gone.

 

[JDP530]

Oldtrader3, I used Remington fmj 95 gr the first time I took the gun to range and didn't have any issues. Yesterday I was shooting RWS fmj 95 gr and S&B fmj 95 gr when I had so many fail-to-fire issues.
Btw my gun s/n is KAFxxxx and it has coated rails.

 

[Fastbolt]

Oldtrader3, I used Remington fmj 95 gr the first time I took the gun to range and didn't have any issues. Yesterday I was shooting RWS fmj 95 gr and S&B fmj 95 gr when I had so many fail-to-fire issues.
Btw my gun s/n is KAFxxxx and it has coated rails.

If it runs like it should with some ammo, but not with others ... that's possibly a hint.

No way to know what's going on with your particular pistol, not without being able to examine it, but light-strikes can often be caused by contaminated firing pin channels and ammunition issues.

Contaminated firing pin channels can happen when some owners/users get a little exuberant on their cleaning & lubrication practices, introducing excessive liquids to places where they can run into the firing pin channel (and from which they can't easily run back out of).

I dislike using aerosol cleaning products which can similarly force contaminants, debris, fouling & such into places ... or, introduce condensation which can become trapped (using an air compressor can sometimes create this issue).

The ammunition influence is most easily checked by using something made by one of the major American ammo manufacturers in your gun, to establish a baseline of performance and reliability (since that's what the company says they use for test-fire).

As a firearms owner, LE instructor & armorer for some different makes/models of pistols I've certainly had more than ample opportunity to experience and witness ammo-related functioning issues.

I don't like to throw stones at particular ammo companies, but consider what the big gun companies typically tell armorers in factory armorer classes about suspected ammo-related functioning issues, which is to try (and use) different ammo if problems are encountered in one or more brands/types.

It's not uncommon to hear of some foreign produced ammo to have harder primers than those used in some American ammo ... although primer quality and sensitivity may seem to be a bit variable at one time or another, especially when you get into the budget lines. Some companies advertise more sensitive primers in some of their product lines, and you can hear of some large LE/Gov bids listing such things in their specifications (along with other specifications they may desire, of course).

I know ammo prices are out-of-sight and availability is really tight right now, but there are some foreign-produced and "budget" American produced ammo lines from smaller ammo companies that I wouldn't use in my own guns even if they were given to me as a gift.

Even the big names can produce some occasional ammo lots with QC issues, and the less expensive budget lines typically cost less for good reason (less expensive components may mean things like less sensitive primers, dirtier burning propellents, no case mouth or primer pocket sealants).

I've seen a lot of the Winchester flat nose FMJ used for quals & practice in the BG380's & LCP's owned and used by our folks (and some other, older .380's, of course), and more recently the Speer 90gr GSHP. One guy has had good luck with the Hornady Critical Defense in his BG380.

If it were me, I'd try some other American offerings from the big names, and some JHP loads from them, as well, and see how they work.

 

[JDP530]

Fastbolt, thanks for the excellent advice and info! I dont have much experience with firearms and ammo, even tho I started hunting when I was about 10 years old. I just started shooting again when I had an opportunity to take a friend's place in a CCL class. So I pulled out my older guns that I had neglected for some years, cleaned them up, purchased a couple of new ones, and got back into shooting again more as a hobby than anything else.

I will take your advice and return to the range with the same ammo I used the first time out where I didnt have any FTF issues. I was also using some Monach without any problems. I was wondering if the primers could be the issue because of a difference in the construction or gauge of metal.

Another point that you mentioned was in regard to cleaning. Maybe I am making a mistake trying to clean out the firing pin channel. I have been spraying some cleaner/degreasers and allowing it to soak. Then after cleaning i put a drop of Hoppe gun oil on the back side of pin and allow it to drain into channel. I guess the oil could be causing the pin to drag in the channel. What is your suggested method for cleaning the pin if anything?

Thanks,
John P.

 

[Fastbolt]

Fastbolt, thanks for the excellent advice and info! I dont have much experience with firearms and ammo, even tho I started hunting when I was about 10 years old. I just started shooting again when I had an opportunity to take a friend's place in a CCL class. So I pulled out my older guns that I had neglected for some years, cleaned them up, purchased a couple of new ones, and got back into shooting again more as a hobby than anything else.

I will take your advice and return to the range with the same ammo I used the first time out where I didnt have any FTF issues. I was also using some Monach without any problems. I was wondering if the primers could be the issue because of a difference in the construction or gauge of metal.

Another point that you mentioned was in regard to cleaning. Maybe I am making a mistake trying to clean out the firing pin channel. I have been spraying some cleaner/degreasers and allowing it to soak. Then after cleaning i put a drop of Hoppe gun oil on the back side of pin and allow it to drain into channel. I guess the oil could be causing the pin to drag in the channel. What is your suggested method for cleaning the pin if anything?

Thanks,
John P.

If your BG380 feeds, fires and functions as designed when you use ammo made by one or another of the big American ammo makers, but not when you use bargain ammo made by a smaller company or a foreign one ... you have to decide for yourself which ammo you'd rather use.

When I reach for practice/training/carry ammo, I prefer to reach for something made by one or more of the bigger companies like Winchester, Remington, Speer or Federal.

Sure, I've used my fair share of other "less costly" foreign produced ammo over the years (and remanufactured ammo, etc), especially when I was younger and buying more of my own ammo, and I developed my own experiences and opinions about whether it was worth saving the money. I've carefully listened to the experiences of many other armorers, firearms instructors, repair techs, armorer instructors, factory reps, etc, too.

Sometimes a "gun problem" might actually be a problem with a particular gun ... but much more often it's something caused either by the shooter/owner (grip technique and maintenance "practices"), or the ammo.

Don't oil the firing pin in your BG380. Aside from the potential problem that can result from the thicker oil interfering with the firing pin's movement, oil can also attract fouling, debris, grit and any other contaminants, and may eventually congeal inside the firing pin channel. It can start to interfere with the freedom of movement of the firing pin (especially as it fills the firing pin coils). I've lost count of the number of 3rd gen duty guns which exhibited light strikes (or no sign of a firing pin hit at all ) when the firing pin channel contained accumulated fouling, debris & sludge that gummed up everything.

Smaller hammer-fired guns have smaller main springs (hammer springs), and if you start to introduce unfavorable conditions like hard-primers and/or contaminated firing pin channels, you may compromise the desired optimal functioning of the gun to operate the way it was designed.

If you start to experience problems even with good quality ammo made by the big American names, you can call S&W and ask for your BG380 to be examined under warranty for the light-strike issue. They'll pay for shipping & insurance both ways. If something requires correction or repair they can deal with it ... including cleaning out your FP channel as part of the inspection done under warranty.

Removing the FP in the BG380 is a little bit of a tedious procedure, and best let to someone who knows how to do it and has the proper (albeit simple) tools.