Buying Here for Resale > New Rules

[Jessie]

It is a free market. This is kind of tough to control.
Possibly a probationary period for members based on posts( other than " I'll take it")
If the consensus here is that its a problem, then it may be a solution.
I doubt that a dealer is going to spend the time, to be determined, to participate in the forums very much if their sole purpose is dealing firearms.
Just my thought on a tough nut to crack.

 

[O2Guy]

How long does a buyer have to keep a gun before resale and then be labeled as a flipper? 1 day? 1 week? 1 month? 1 year?

I have seen several guns sell here that I would have bought if I'd only gotten there earlier. But, I wasn't the first, and I didn't throw a tantrum because someone beat me to it.

This makes me think that the "fairness" crowd has invaded this forum. Kinda like where the school kids all get an award or trophy and no one is the winner. Ya know, in the name of fairness.

 

[NFAguy]

Get Tapatalk and setup notifications. I did it from my hospital Bed. So Can You. That way you can beat the dealers and buy that Grail gun you have always wanted.

It's 2014 and technology advances daily. Use it, embrace it, enjoy it. I Sure Do.

Great, now everybody knows the dealers are using taptalk.

 

[keith44spl]

It's kinda like going to a gun show......

What you see on their tables are the least desirable items (to the seller anyway) that they own.

It's just a pleasant past time for most of us........


.

 

[clevolver]

I hate to say it, but I don't see how imposing a voluntary, self-enforced rule is going to correct an economics problem.

The simple fact is, if you can buy something for far less than what others may be willing to pay for it, you have every incentive to do so.

I really appreciate people who try to price their guns fairly, or even offering them at "friend" prices. I *especially* appreciate the kind and knowledgeable old-timers who bought guns when they were a tiny fraction of the cost they go for these days, and feel that selling a pristine revolver for $350 is still a great deal for them, since they bought it for perhaps $20 60 years ago, even though you can find sellers asking $600 for the same model. But, as much as we might feel like the S-W Forum is a bunch of friends, it's not the case that every forum member is friends with every other.

I don't really have a solution to this, but my suggestion is, price your guns at a fair market value. If you want to sell for "friend" prices, make sure who you're dealing with is a true friend. Realize that after the sale is completed, you are no longer the owner, and whatever the new owner does with it is not your business or your responsibility or your concern. You can't put conditions on a sale that change the rights of ownership.

Establishing what a "fair market value" is is the tricky part. All you can do is do your research and take a reasonable guess. Supply, demand, and price vary considerably across the country. What seems like a fair price in your region may be a steal price elsewhere. The internet and shipping negate geography, bringing buyers and sellers together who otherwise could never be expected to meet. This creates opportunity and incentive, plain and simple.

There's always stories about people finding "steals" in unexpected places, counterbalanced by listings on auction sites for obscene prices. No one wants to be on the wrong side of a "steal" story; the internet just makes it more likely that you will find out if you were, resulting in remorse. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

Collectors are not rational actors in the market. They will overspend for very specific reasons that make sense to them, but it creates bubbles of irrationality which become data points when commodity sellers try to determine price.

Many uninformed people assume that if an example of a given model in collector grade condition can bring a premium price, then a shooter grade example should bring the same price, maybe slightly under. And this is the engine that drives prices ever upward, and creates a cycle, whereby the collectors see what shooter grade examples are bringing, so they raise prices on collector grade guns. The rapid appreciation drives speculation.

The fact that it's possible to flip a "collectible" gun due to rapid appreciation guarantees that there are going to be people who pursue this. And they will continue to do so until it is no longer possible, which will only be the case when the collectible market collapses. Asking them to voluntarily refrain from speculating and flipping for the good of the market is beyond such people. A speculator, like any other gambler, always thinks they can outsmart the house and get out while they're ahead, selling at the peak of the market, getting out before the collapse.

 

[hangnoose]

GOOD IN THEORY

Hard to enforce without punishing the good along with the bad. YOU WILL NEVER please everyone, & the honor system is broke. How much of it is sour grapes from sellers that see someone else make more $ than them because the "new seller" put in more time & effort. OR hard feelings because a buyer dawdled. Some are 100% valid concerns/gripes. I must have liked about every other post. Ideals are fine when things work out. Unfortunately the world changes & we can't stop time. No I'm not an FFL but I do buy sell at most 12/year was my record, & I consider myself the worst salesman in history. I'm happy to break even, & just get to use some nice guns for a period of time for free. I likely lose more $ than I make. I prefer the simplicity of a ftf sale with NO e-mails, texts,phone calls,sending pics to lookie Lou's & rent a 10$ table from my local gun club swap meet 2-3x a year. Once I sell something I have NO RIGHT to say what the new owner does with it, if I got the price I wanted. SURE I would prefer guns I have some sentiment with go to good homes, & give a friends/family discount, BUT wouldn't want someone to tell me how I can buy sell. I like the idea of the seller setting the criteria. If he wants the $ ASAP he should be able to get it, IF he has a huge moral compass he could sell with stipulations. I have bought/sold online, NOT HERE YET, & I don't care for scalpers like I had a few tables away from me yesterday, but I have enough trouble keeping myself on the straight & narrow, to worry about others.

 

[RIDE-RED 350r]

Well, this is a very tricky situation in my humble opinion....

I really enjoy and appreciate this forum for all I have learned from the membership here. The classifieds sections are the icing on the cake to me and a secondary function. I have done some buying, just a few accessories, no firearms as of yet. But in all cases I could not be happier with the other members I have done business with..

Having said that, this question of imposing rules like suggested does walk a tight line indeed. My knee-jerk reaction as a small government kind of guy is to let it be. In my opinion, if a seller gets his asking price what business is it of his what the buyer does with it after the transaction is complete?? This is the free-market capitalist in me..

However: I do understand the feelings of those who are more often in a good financial position to buy a firearm on a moments notice than I usually am when every time something comes up they would like to buy it is gone within minutes of the initial posting.. Especially when it is discovered that the item of interest is sold only to show up elsewhere for more money a few days later.

I realize I am only reiterating what has been said several times before me, I'm just typing out loud here....

After seeing all of the debate on this topic, it's my opinion that this be handled on a case by case basis as deemed necessary by the mods and admins. In other words, let's not make all people wear diapers because 1 or 2 had in accident in their dungarees. I think an all encompassing rule that applies to "dealers" may be a bit unfair. I think simply addressing the few bad apples on a case by case basis may be a better solution since I have seen it posted or implied here more than a couple times this has been brought about by "a few bad apples".....

Lee, thank you giving the membership the opportunity to voice our opinions on this matter. Hopefully the solution is one that the vast majority are satisfied with.

 

[RalphMP9FS]

I think restricting sales is a very bad idea. If the seller doesn't set the current market price correctly, that's his/her fault. I have firsthand experience with that when an FFL dealer scooped up my handgun within 5 minutes of my for sale post. I was satisfied with the sale even though it was resold at auction for more than double my selling price.

 

[LostintheOzone]

I see this happening on another forum also. Gun goes up for sale by a member who is trying to keep the price within reason for other members and not looking for profit. Then the gun is sold in less than 5 minutes to a non participating member with 10 posts, all "I'll take it". I think this is one reason some forums don't allow the listing of firearms as it turns the forum into a marketplace for dealers. I don't really see anything wrong with a market place but sellers who think that they should be able to sell their firearms to who they want are offended.

Personally, I don't buy many firearms although I've purchased a few here. I'm not a dealer or a collector but I know enough that I can recognize some good deals popping up here from time to time. I may have been guilty of dropping the hammer on one in the first hour but it was purely a fluke.

This forum has established itself as a market place. I think to change that now would be difficult as that is what it has become and a part of the attraction for many. Everyone likes to find a deal. It's like going to a garage sale and finding a perfectly good high end table saw for $100. If you're smart you aren't going to go home and talk to your wife about it because it won't be there when you come back. If it's a true market place it has to be open to everyone including dealers. I don't think you can say this item is only for sale to the people I want to sell it to.

 

[Grayfox]

While the 24 hour rule may seem like a good thing, I just don't see it working. I depends entirely on the honor system and frankly the flippers being discussed aren't exactly the most honorable of people.
As I stated in my previous post (#48), if you want this practice to stop, its the sellers who have to do it. If enough sellers refuse to do business with these flippers, then they will eventually move on to more fertile hunting grounds.
Now the seller is just looking to get rid of his item and make a few bucks. Why should they care who buys it? Further more, what business is it to any of us who they sell it to?
The choice of who to sell to is entirely up to the seller. If they decide not to sell to a flipper, good for them. I applaud your conviction. If they do sell to the flipper, well money talks and that is what you were after. So I certianly can't hold it against you.
Now I do suppose that Lee could ban the few know flippers. But they would probably just re-register under another name and go back to work.
Also bear in mind that this board has no requirement to even have buy/sell forums. They do so as a service to the members. All sales are private transactions between the buyer and seller. As far as I know there is no responsabilty for the board owner, legal or otherwise, to monitor or regulate said sales.
As I understand it, the complaints aren't coming from the buyers or sellers, but from certian people who feel that they missed out on good deals due to unfair practices.

How many times does it have to be said? Life ain't fair, deal with it.

 

[MP1983]

Worms gravitate to the soft dirt...

my .02 on the issue...

 

[fat tom]

An interesting dilemma.

I can see most sides of this issue and agree there is not an easy answer.

I agree with the above quote,therefore I will also agree to whatever the owner of this forum decides is the best course of action. Ain't nuthin' PERFECT! I'm just happy to be here.

f.t.

 

[G-Mac]

Get Tapatalk and setup notifications. I did it from my hospital Bed. So Can You. That way you can beat the dealers and buy that Grail gun you have always wanted.

It's 2014 and technology advances daily. Use it, embrace it, enjoy it. I Sure Do.

Do you do it for your collection, or to flip them for a quick profit?

When I opened this thread, yours was one of the first user names that popped into my head.

You have either made a bunch of money here, or have one heck of a collection.

 

[Hillbilly77]

I support the idea of requiring dealers to wait a day before buying here.

From the first line of the forum rules:

This board exists for communication about shooting, owning, collecting, studying, understanding, and enhancing all things pertaining to Smith & Wesson.

It doesn't say a word about this forum existing so dealers can skin a profit here.

I'd rather see "regular people" get first chance at an item.

As for people who think, "I'll just PM the dealer directly when I have a gun for sale.", knock yourself out.
You're willing to let a guy buy a gun from you, while knowing full well that he's going to jack up the price and sell it to somebody else.
That tells me that you know that your gun is worth $100 or $200 more than your asking price. Why in the world would you let a dealer lowball you instead of just selling the gun to a "regular person" for what it's actually worth?!
I can't follow that logic at all.


In the interest of transparency, I have never bought a gun here.
I did trade for one here, and I still have the one I traded for.
I won't let that gun go, as it was one of my "Grail Guns".

I did re-sell a set of Kurac grips recently - for $5.00 more than I paid for them.
I jacked up the price on purpose to help me recoup my shipping costs, but I did mention that in my ad, too.
I only re-sold them because I thought they were too nice for me to risk dinging them up.

 

[A10]

I don't think this forum was set up to be another Gunbroker or Armslist. It's a place where like minded folks can come and share, and maybe make a deal with a fellow member on a gun they want.

I've got no problem with eliminating the Guns For Sale section. It's a shame, but as I said before, if all you are doing is using this place as a profit center, you are not contributing to the Forum in any way shape or form. There are other places for you to do business.

 

[A10]

Do you do it for your collection, or to flip them for a quick profit?

When I opened this thread, yours was one of the first user names that popped into my head.

You have either made a bunch of money here, or have one heck of a collection.

Well, Jim is an SWCA member, and yes he buys a lot of guns but he also posts a lot here. I don't think he's the issue.

 

[bovw]

I don't think this forum was set up to be another Gunbroker or Armslist. It's a place where like minded folks can come and share, and maybe make a deal with a fellow member on a gun they want.

I've got no problem with eliminating the Guns For Sale section. It's a shame, but as I said before, if all you are doing is using this place as a profit center, you are not contributing to the Forum in any way shape or form. There are other places for you to do business.

This is one thing I like about the 1911 forum, no gun sales.

 

[NFAguy]

Do you do it for your collection, or to flip them for a quick profit?



When I opened this thread, yours was one of the first user names that popped into my head.



You have either made a bunch of money here, or have one heck of a collection.

Just to be "fair" I have personally bought items from him that I know was sold at a loss or at a zero net sum gain at least.

 

[Harrydale]

I don't know if this would help or not but on another gun forum I am on they have a classified section. You are not allowed to buy or sell in those classifieds till you have posted a certain number of times on their forum, I think it's 20 times but it could be any number.

 

[jcelect]

Buying on the forum?

A point from the past! This problem was here before the Gorilla! I remember two cases of this problem for the previous owner of this forum. His solution was to compare the number of posts by the offender in ALL the other topics compared to the number in the Classifieds. In these two cases it was clear the offenders were using this forum to buy and resell only! They were banned from the forum.
We must keep in mind an FFL holder makes his living from buying and selling guns. If the guns for sale leave money for a resale that is the problem of the seller. If you wish to buy his gun at a lower price, a PM with an offer is in order.
IMHO Joe Cebull SWCA#LM723