Can a cracked forcing cone be repaired?

[Iceberg1]

I have a .38 M&P, model of 1905, 4th change that was shipped some time in 1917. It had the 5" barrel and the forcing cone is cracked. I had it replaced several years ago, with the only barrel I could find, a 6" version. Can the forcing cone crack be repaired? I'd really like this gun restored to original. It was my Grandfather's gun and has sentimental value far exceeding the commercial or collectors value. Thanks

 

[scooter123]

It can probably be TIG welded and re-machined but you have to understand that should be treated as a cosmetic repair and NOT a repair to restore function. Basically, you have to understand that any use will result in the repaired area cracking again.

The problem is that the steel these barrels were made with pre-dates any grading, so it's basically an unknown type of steel. In addition this particular steel may not be easily welded and probably exhibit some undesireable properties in the Heat Effected zone surrounding the weld. The end result is you cannot "trust" any repair and it's within the range of possibility that the welded area may re-crack just sitting on a shelf.

 

[BB57]

It can't be fixed at this stage of the game.

Cracks in forcing cones often start in the V of a gas cut on the barrel from throat erosion, as it creates a stress riser, that inc injunction with the thinner forcing cone at the clearance cut for the crane results in a crack soon forming. When that's the case, if caught early enough, you can set the barrel back a turn , or even two, reface the barrel, recut the throat, and get ahead of it.

But you've got an impressively large crack in your forcing cone and you're way past setting anything back. You're in need of a replacement barrel.

 

[steelslaver]

The best way to repair a crack is to find the end of the crack and drill a small hole there to stop further travel by the crack. Then you would have to use a small grinder to V out the crack and tig weld it back up. I would pre heat the piece to about 500f before starting the weld. In this case the crack probably actually goes into the thread area a bit. So after welding and taking it off the excess weld you would have to recut the threads. Could be done with small jeweler's files. Then you would have to remove the weld from were it penetrated inside the barrel. Easy do in the forcing cone area, but past that it would suck. Maybe a long tapered reamer could achieve getting it cleaned up. Properly done you would still need to post weld heat treat it (to take care of the heat affected weld zone) by taking to around 1000f and slow cooling over about 10 hours. All this and it still wouldn't be as good as new and may well crack again upon use as it was a week area in the first place. The type of steel used could be determine with a PMI gun. (I have access to one). It basically shoots the steel with a week radiation source and reads the response. It would all have to be a "labor of love"

Just letting you know what would be involved in a "best quality" repair. My work trade was a industrial pipe fitter and foreman and I spend a lot of time working on pressure piping and vessels. I am currently back in a plant working and part of the project is repairing a cracking crude column. I have also worked repairing high pressure reactor vessels. Lot of things can be repaired, but it is also a lot of time and $$$$.

Sorry.

 

[IraIII]

Why try to repair the crack? I see it has sentimental value to you, I think you should re-install the original barrel to make it correct. Then buy yourself a shooter that you would like, this way you have your sentimental revolver, and a revolver to shoot and start your own memories with. Also it probably will come out even money wise.

 

[colt_saa]

Must you have the original barrel back on it? Or do you just want to return it to it's original 5" configuration?

Obviously if you are planning to shoot it, a weld is not going to make you happy.

Obviously the serials won't match, but I would look for a 5" barrel to put on it. Now to get one you might have to buy a complete 5" gun. Swap the barrels between the two and then sell the now 6" gun

 

[2152hq]

If the sentimental value of having the matching bbl is strong enough, then you could go ahead and have the work done as described above. Pricey, sure. Still not a shooter. But it's restored and that's what some people want.

Another way to have the the original matching # bbl,,or at least the look of it and still be a shooter is to use the orig bbl as a sleeve. You use another bbl with an excellent bore and forcing cone as the bbl itself.
Not relining,,sleeving takes the old bbl and cut's it off at the face of the frame, bores it out quite large straight through.
The other bbl, preferably a S&W bbl so you have the same factory rifling specs is fitted to the frame. This new bbl is fitted up for cyl gap, ect. Then it is removed and the entire length is turned down expect for a small shoulder at the frame abutment so the old bbl (now a sleeve) will slide over and onto it.
The sleeve bbl is given a small recess at the breech end to accept the shoulder cut on the 'new' bbl. The The sleeve is then permanetly attached to the new bbl. Solder used to be the way,,then epoxy,,now various Loc-Tite compounds are used with great success. Same as the liner attachment business has gone.
A close fit between the two and a slightly coned muzzle will make all appearances of the work dissappear if done carefully.
The 'new' bbl takes all the stress of fireing. The sleeve made of the old bbl is there for looks and carrys the original markings,ser# and 'look' of the family prized gun.
Not cheap either,,restoration rarely is but it makes the gun a shooter.

If you don't care about all that,,then just hunt down a 5" tube have it installed.

 

[Iceberg1]

That's all I needed to know. It's a wall hanger from here on out as I have other shooters. Thanks for the response.

 

[Iceberg1]

It can probably be TIG welded and re-machined but you have to understand that should be treated as a cosmetic repair and NOT a repair to restore function. Basically, you have to understand that any use will result in the repaired area cracking again.

The problem is that the steel these barrels were made with pre-dates any grading, so it's basically an unknown type of steel. In addition this particular steel may not be easily welded and probably exhibit some undesireable properties in the Heat Effected zone surrounding the weld. The end result is you cannot "trust" any repair and it's within the range of possibility that the welded area may re-crack just sitting on a shelf.

I'll just re-install the 5" barrel and hang it on the wall. Thanks for the info.

 

[Iceberg1]

It can't be fixed at this stage of the game.

Cracks in forcing cones often start in the V of a gas cut on the barrel from throat erosion, as it creates a stress riser, that inc injunction with the thinner forcing cone at the clearance cut for the crane results in a crack soon forming. When that's the case, if caught early enough, you can set the barrel back a turn , or even two, reface the barrel, recut the throat, and get ahead of it.

But you've got an impressively large crack in your forcing cone and you're way past setting anything back. You're in need of a replacement barrel.

Thanks for the response. I will have the 5" barrel re-installed and hang it on the wall. I have other shooters.

 

[Iceberg1]

The best way to repair a crack is to find the end of the crack and drill a small hole there to stop further travel by the crack. Then you would have to use a small grinder to V out the crack and tig weld it back up. I would pre heat the piece to about 500f before starting the weld. In this case the crack probably actually goes into the thread area a bit. So after welding and taking it off the excess weld you would have to recut the threads. Could be done with small jeweler's files. Then you would have to remove the weld from were it penetrated inside the barrel. Easy do in the forcing cone area, but past that it would suck. Maybe a long tapered reamer could achieve getting it cleaned up. Properly done you would still need to post weld heat treat it (to take care of the heat affected weld zone) by taking to around 1000f and slow cooling over about 10 hours. All this and it still wouldn't be as good as new and may well crack again upon use as it was a week area in the first place. The type of steel used could be determine with a PMI gun. (I have access to one). It basically shoots the steel with a week radiation source and reads the response. It would all have to be a "labor of love"

Just letting you know what would be involved in a "best quality" repair. My work trade was a industrial pipe fitter and foreman and I spend a lot of time working on pressure piping and vessels. I am currently back in a plant working and part of the project is repairing a cracking crude column. I have also worked repairing high pressure reactor vessels. Lot of things can be repaired, but it is also a lot of time and $$$$.

Sorry.

Thanks for the response. I'll have the 5" barrel reinstalled and hang it on the wall.

 

[Iceberg1]

If the sentimental value of having the matching bbl is strong enough, then you could go ahead and have the work done as described above. Pricey, sure. Still not a shooter. But it's restored and that's what some people want.

Another way to have the the original matching # bbl,,or at least the look of it and still be a shooter is to use the orig bbl as a sleeve. You use another bbl with an excellent bore and forcing cone as the bbl itself.
Not relining,,sleeving takes the old bbl and cut's it off at the face of the frame, bores it out quite large straight through.
The other bbl, preferably a S&W bbl so you have the same factory rifling specs is fitted to the frame. This new bbl is fitted up for cyl gap, ect. Then it is removed and the entire length is turned down expect for a small shoulder at the frame abutment so the old bbl (now a sleeve) will slide over and onto it.
The sleeve bbl is given a small recess at the breech end to accept the shoulder cut on the 'new' bbl. The The sleeve is then permanetly attached to the new bbl. Solder used to be the way,,then epoxy,,now various Loc-Tite compounds are used with great success. Same as the liner attachment business has gone.
A close fit between the two and a slightly coned muzzle will make all appearances of the work dissappear if done carefully.
The 'new' bbl takes all the stress of fireing. The sleeve made of the old bbl is there for looks and carrys the original markings,ser# and 'look' of the family prized gun.
Not cheap either,,restoration rarely is but it makes the gun a shooter.

If you don't care about all that,,then just hunt down a 5" tube have it installed.

Very interesting take on the repair. I'll have to consider cost versus value as a shooter or a wall hanger. I have other shooters. Thanks for the info

 

[Iceberg1]

Must you have the original barrel back on it? Or do you just want to return it to it's original 5" configuration?

Obviously if you are planning to shoot it, a weld is not going to make you happy.

Obviously the serials won't match, but I would look for a 5" barrel to put on it. Now to get one you might have to buy a complete 5" gun. Swap the barrels between the two and then sell the now 6" gun

Another possibility I hadn't thought of. Thanks for the info.

 

[Iceberg1]

Why try to repair the crack? I see it has sentimental value to you, I think you should re-install the original barrel to make it correct. Then buy yourself a shooter that you would like, this way you have your sentimental revolver, and a revolver to shoot and start your own memories with. Also it probably will come out even money wise.

Thanks for your reply. I have other shooters and will probably re-install the old barrel for a wall hanger.

 

[Iceberg1]

Another way to have the the original matching # bbl,,or at least the look of it and still be a shooter is to use the orig bbl as a sleeve. You use another bbl with an excellent bore and forcing cone as the bbl itself.
Not relining,,sleeving takes the old bbl and cut's it off at the face of the frame, bores it out quite large straight through.
The other bbl, preferably a S&W bbl so you have the same factory rifling specs is fitted to the frame. This new bbl is fitted up for cyl gap, ect. Then it is removed and the entire length is turned down expect for a small shoulder at the frame abutment so the old bbl (now a sleeve) will slide over and onto it.
The sleeve bbl is given a small recess at the breech end to accept the shoulder cut on the 'new' bbl. The The sleeve is then permanetly attached to the new bbl. Solder used to be the way,,then epoxy,,now various Loc-Tite compounds are used with great success. Same as the liner attachment business has gone.
A close fit between the two and a slightly coned muzzle will make all appearances of the work dissappear if done carefully.
The 'new' bbl takes all the stress of fireing. The sleeve made of the old bbl is there for looks and carrys the original markings,ser# and 'look' of the family prized gun.
Not cheap either,,restoration rarely is but it makes the gun a shooter.

I found a gunsmith in Colville, his counterman said he can do it but wasn't in till Monday. I'll be there when he opens. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[ddixie884]

I would look into having it re-lined. I had a .357 HP relined to .45 one time and made a .45Colt & .45ACP convertible from it.

 

[Iceberg1]

I would look into having it re-lined. I had a .357 HP relined to .45 one time and made a .45Colt & .45ACP convertible from it.

Another possibility, and I thought there'd be no hope of shooting it again with the original barrel.Thanks it's something I'll consider.

 

[chief38]

I'd look for another barrel or at least maybe a "beater gun" that has a descent barrel you can strip off. It won't be an easy task as the gun is so old, but it never hurts to try. Other than that, I'd just keep it as a keepsake and not shoot it. Leave as a wall-hangar as you said until (if and when) you do find a replacement barrel. Hey...... you never know!

 

[JSR III]

It was my Grandfather's gun and has sentimental value far exceeding the commercial or collectors value.

I think that you have answered your own question. Put the original barrel back on and save it as a piece of family history. Then take one of your shooters to the range and shoot it until you crack the forcing cone. Then you'll have a gun that YOUR grandson can worry about.

 

[july1952]

IMHO the best way to fix a cracked forcing cone is to have the cracked portion cut off, have the barrel turned, creating a new forcing cone and threads cut. I had to have a model 28-2 repaired to fix the same problem and should only be done by a very competent gunsmith. Send it to S&W and let one of their master gunsmiths do the work. They are very reasonable. The gunsmith at S&W that did the work was Gene Sypek.