Carrying W/Empty Chamber

[TwoGunsStanding]

Dave, when the dog charged you, would you have had time to chamber a round? I realize that you may not have done that easily AFTER you were bit, but how much warning did you have? I find your comments interesting, as it is a "hands on" thing. I would not choose a handguns that MIGHT require an empty chamber if ON DUTY, but even ON DUTY might find an officer's gun empty and one handed. We all know about that. I have responded to agressive dogs while hiking by getting my gun out (lots of time to chamber one), and keeping it ready. Once again, responding (being sent to) to known threats is a bit different that a civilian carrying a gun responding to a hostile or potentially hostile incident in his direct sight or peripheral. My inital request for thought on empty chamber was directed to CCW, not so much duty type response to armed encounters, although most ALL departments deploy shotguns with empty chambers to ALL incidents, and cops rarely grumble about having to rack the slide and how it slowed them down.....

 

[WC145]

Originally posted by TwoGunsStanding:
Dave, when the dog charged you, would you have had time to chamber a round? I realize that you may not have done that easily AFTER you were bit, but how much warning did you have? I find your comments interesting, as it is a "hands on" thing. I would not choose a handguns that MIGHT require an empty chamber if ON DUTY, but even ON DUTY might find an officer's gun empty and one handed. We all know about that. I have responded to agressive dogs while hiking by getting my gun out (lots of time to chamber one), and keeping it ready. Once again, responding (being sent to) to known threats is a bit different that a civilian carrying a gun responding to a hostile or potentially hostile incident in his direct sight or peripheral. My inital request for thought on empty chamber was directed to CCW, not so much duty type response to armed encounters, although most ALL departments deploy shotguns with empty chambers to ALL incidents, and cops rarely grumble about having to rack the slide and how it slowed them down.....

All of your attempts to twist scenarios to show carrying with an empty chamber as OK and a viable defense option are negated by the fact that one day you may have to be ready to draw and fire immediately. It doesn't matter if you're a cop or not, if you need a gun you need it now and you need it loaded.

 

[G-ManBart]

Originally posted by TwoGunsStanding:
G-Man Bart, I'm starting to get the impression that you just don't believe anyone should carry a gun chamber empty. Per my ealier post, I intimated that we all should be sizing up the situation, all the time, and that even when a cop is face to face with a problem child, MOST of the good guys are going to be wary, AND hesitant, given the problems with shooting people on the job in general. There is a measure of time that that takes. Perhaps you would just draw and fire in all instances. Let me ask you, how many gunfights have you been in where the difference in getting off your shot, and adding the time that it takes you to chamber a round and start the shooting would have cost you your life or being injured? Anything other than "I've had a hands on experience like that" is conjecture. Don't get me wrong, I love conjecture. It IS food for thought, BUT it is not definitive. Private citizens are no less legally bound than cops, and while you may not endorse producing a weapon until it's all of a dire straights, shoot-em-now situation, if I have time, I'm going to do ALL kinds of things that better my chances, to include getting the gun in my hand, looking quickly for bad guys two, three, and four(he, BG #1 may not be alone), chambering, taking off the safety (should it be cocked and locked), taking cover, barking serious orders to the bad guy(s), etc. I'm awfully glad I have NOT had to shoot anyone yet, I have been in condition zero with a few people, and wrestled the gun away from another before I could even THINK about drawing. I have to guess that if I am one or two steps away from the bad guy again, I might just instinctively step into and grapple again. I didn't plan that one, it just happened. Just like knife fighting, if you are very close, you can do a lot of things that don't necessarily result in gun shots. Smacking a bad guy in the face with the slide of my unchambered pistol might be the best plan at three feet, much like the speedy damage that a knife might do at arms reach. Like I said, you're pretty adamant about your position. Still, to worry about the difference of "draw-bang" vs. "draw-rack-bang" seems pretty trivial to me in the big scheme of things. I DO practice being able to rack the slide back on my belt, palm, or nearby objects (or one handed -Brownings and Colt 1911's will do that, CZ-75's won't, for instance), should I become one handed. And I do practice shooting with both hands, almost to the point of being totally ambidextrous. Everybody's worst fear is the "no warning, didn't-see-it-coming-he's-pulling-his-gun-and-he-is-going-to-shoot-ME-NOW" scenario. But, 95-98% of the time, that is just not the way it is, and I'm being generous with the other percentage. Condition white, condition yellow. Big difference (thank you, Mr Cooper). Obviously you are going to feel seriously handicapped to have an empty chamber on any gun, ever, but that might just be a wee bit of parnoia rather than being "all ready" at all times. If you've got lightning reflexes, and do all the other awareness and street survival tactics, then I bow to you...you will probably beat me to the draw AND clean my clock thrice over before I rack my slide. Or, it might just be MY day for dumb luck.

Well, if we're sticking to handguns, no I don't think anybody should carry with an empty chamber. Just because sometimes, even if it's most of the time, you'll have the time to rack the slide doesn't mean that all the time you'll be able to chamber a round. We carry a gun to be ready for the worst case scenario, not the best and not for something in between.

I have never had to shoot anyone, knock on wood, and don't ever want to. I have had to draw my weapon, both on duty and off, and in all four of those cases that I can remember I would not have had the time to chamber a round. In one case the guy popped through a doorway less than 10ft from me with a broken bottle in his hand...and he was about 5" and 50lbs heavier than me...pretty muscular, young guy. Luckily, he recognized me, saw the gun and stopped in his tracks. The second time, I was standing there when a guy opened his glove compartment and there was a gun plainly visible....he was an off-duty cop. I wouldn't have had time to chamber a round and even at that, he would have probably gotten rounds off at me if he was a bad guy....I was drawing, backpeddling and displacing to the side the whole time. Another time I had some gang bangers start what I think was going to be a car jacking out of the blue. I had only the time to grab my gun, point it out the car window at them and when they saw it, they ran back to their car behind mine....I then ran the red light to get away. The last time my wife and I were walking out to our car and a creepy looking guy angled across the parking lot and did the "do you know what time it is" deal. I looked at him and firmly said "NO, I don't", but he kept coming at us. I pushed my wife towards the car, and away from the guy with my left hand while I drew my gun with my right hand. He kept closing the distance the whole time and if he had been armed I would have had no time to rack the slide....it would have simply been a matter of whether I could get my gun to go bang and put effective hits on him before he could do the same.

Now, it occurs to me that someone who carries with a round in the chamber sometimes and without a round in the chamber other times has just added one more thing to think about....not usually a good idea. Hmmm....here comes mister bad guy, do I have to rack the slide or not? If you didn't need to rack the slide and you waste time doing so, you might be hosed. If you did need to and forgot, you're equally hosed.

I spent a little more time practicing my draw, rack, shoot and went out and shot some video of it. My 7yd draw was 1s flat with a round in the chamber. In fact the first was .98s or .99s and the second was 1.02s....what I predicted. I didn't do any more than that because my times would have dropped as I got in the groove. I can get down to .8s without much trouble...that wouldn't really be a fair representation of what I can do cold. I then ran the draw, rack, shoot. I practiced it a few times and they were all 1.6s give or take a bit. Then with the video rolling I did a 1.48s, 1.62 (I mistakenly said this was 1.26s on the video) and 1.48s. Dead cold I'd be slower than that, but at the very least it's a half second slower. I'm uploading the two videos to Youtube now and will post the link shortly (it's a slow upload). I'll apologize in advance for the three day beard and it would have been much smoother if I had someone to do the video for me.

What's even more interesting is that I used 7yds for this drill. If I'd done it at something like 3yds the difference would be even bigger. I can get a shot off in .5s if I'm point shooting from the hip and still hit the target solidly....no way to do that if you have to rack the slide.

I still can't imagine how you're getting 95-98% of the time people will have the time to rack the slide. In all my years of law enforcement I've known exactly ONE guy who would have had the time to rack the slide. I know a bunch of guys who didn't have any time to spare and simply would not have had that extra time. It's a heck of a lot different when you're a cop and having to go look for the bad guy, or think something hinkey is going on. If you're just going about your everyday life and it hits the fan, it's usually a heck of a lot different because the predator is looking to catch you off guard and they're a lot less likely to give you the time and/or distance to spend some of it racking the slide.

Even if it is 95-98% of the time where you could rack the slide, why would you want to screw yourself in the 2-5% of the time when there isn't enough time? That's just giving the bad guy an advantage from the start.

No matter how you cut it, there are times when you won't have the chance to rack the slide, or won't be able to because your other hand is occupied doing something else. If you're not prepared for that, you're simply not prepared. I don't see how that's reasonable. R,

 

[TwoGunsStanding]

G-Man, I can't help but smile, because the way I look at it, in each case of your experiences that you described, I could see myself racking the slide, and having the same results as you...not shooting. I mean, if it doesn't come to being forced to shoot, don't you still have that 1/2-1 second to, well, not shoot? I'm poking at you a little here, and you are very professional in your assessment of sticking with one gun and carrying it charged, etc. I am not advocating abandoning proper tactics to be armed and ready, or to deter people from using better guns for CCW. Originally, I just wanted to know if some carry chamber empty, and for what reasons. My reasons are limited to this: I sometimes carry a gun that is less than optimal for self defense, sometimes just because I can, and at my level of experience, I can probably make it work. If I lived in a hazardous and threatening environ, I would probably carry my 10mm Caspian framed custom fully loaded, cocked and locked, all the time, and maybe even a backup. I sometimes, however, carry a Colt .32 in an ankle holster and no one knows I'm armed...and that has some advantage, too. Most of the time I am not in the "jungle", so lighter armaments are tolerated now and then. I respect the fact that you are out there, "doing it right", as much as you can. I know when I am "handicapped", and I do acknowledge being underarmed, but, as several have stated, it is still better than being the sheep.

 

[Lee in Quartzsite]

This thread is becoming ridiculous. I still say an empty chamber, equals empty gun, equals carrying a brick.

sipowicz said it even better:
Carrying a gun with an empty chamber is like pulling your shoulder harness across your chest and leaving it unbuckled until you think you are going to crash.

 

[G-ManBart]

Originally posted by TwoGunsStanding:
G-Man, I can't help but smile, because the way I look at it, in each case of your experiences that you described, I could see myself racking the slide, and having the same results as you...not shooting. I mean, if it doesn't come to being forced to shoot, don't you still have that 1/2-1 second to, well, not shoot? I'm poking at you a little here, and you are very professional in your assessment of sticking with one gun and carrying it charged, etc. I am not advocating abandoning proper tactics to be armed and ready, or to deter people from using better guns for CCW. Originally, I just wanted to know if some carry chamber empty, and for what reasons. My reasons are limited to this: I sometimes carry a gun that is less than optimal for self defense, sometimes just because I can, and at my level of experience, I can probably make it work. If I lived in a hazardous and threatening environ, I would probably carry my 10mm Caspian framed custom fully loaded, cocked and locked, all the time, and maybe even a backup. I sometimes, however, carry a Colt .32 in an ankle holster and no one knows I'm armed...and that has some advantage, too. Most of the time I am not in the "jungle", so lighter armaments are tolerated now and then. I respect the fact that you are out there, "doing it right", as much as you can. I know when I am "handicapped", and I do acknowledge being underarmed, but, as several have stated, it is still better than being the sheep.

It's purely luck that I didn't have to shoot in any of those situations. If it had been necessary to shoot, the point is, I wouldn't have had time to rack the slide. Sure, I was lucky, and I'm glad I was, but that doesn't take away from the point that very simply, there won't always be time to do anything but get the gun out and shoot....as fast as possible.

 

[G-ManBart]

Links to the YouTube footage:

7yd draw, round in the chamber. At the end I show the hits and say "fight's over, one second flat" and that was somewhat in jest...I realize one certainly might not get the job done and I don't do much practice on single shots like this....more is better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52W3bjBdLzA

Empty chamber start is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2X8Tm0pgP0

For anyone who watches this, I'll say this not as bragging, but as a way to establish a frame of reference. I was club champion in Limited Division last year (iron sights, high capacity essentially) and I've locked up Open Division (optical sights, compensators, high cap, anything goes) club champion for this year. So while I'm certainly no Robby Leatham or Dave Sevigny (shot with him last month at Area-2) I'm reasonably compentent. What you're seeing in the video is not warp-speed stuff, it's actually on the conservative side...which is why I can call a time and produce it almost at will in this sort of scenario. No, I can't reproduce these times from concealment, but you can bet I do practice that way and know what it does to my total time (a couple of tenths depending on the garment).

If you want to get better...get a timer, a video recorder and use both on a regular basis....you'll be amazed at what it can do to your shooting. If anyone cares, the timer in the video is a CED7000...handy little thing that you charge rather than change batteries and each charge lasts a long time...about $115 with the clip or wristband. I have two other timers and I'm liking the 7000 more and more.

Oh yeah...I don't look quite so much like a goober when I've shaved at some point in the last three days!

 

[pps]

If you carry a gun with an empty chamber, you're merely carrying an ammo storage device. Do what you want though.

 

[boomstick]

For anyone who watches this, I'll say this not as bragging, but as a way to establish a frame of reference. I was club champion in Limited Division last year (iron sights, high capacity essentially) and I've locked up Open Division (optical sights, compensators, high cap, anything goes) club champion for this year.

Very good comprehensive demonstration. Thanks.
I can't even understand why this is an issue. If you can't carry a single action auto, or any auto for that matter, safely with one in the chamber, carry a revolver. Also, not only are you wasting time with an empty chamber, you're wasting the chance to carry one more round before having to reload or run away.

Now this is really going to challenge some people, but I just timed myself racking the slide and firing my .45 1911A1, and I got off a shot before most cops would have decided if they are going to shoot (and bear in mind, I'm a former LEO, so I'm allowed to poke fun).

All the more reason to have that extra half second. If you're drawing and firing that fast it's because someone's already got the drop on you or is already shooting you. That rack the slide business may mean the difference between catching one in the body and none in the head or two in the body and one in head.

 

[Hoptob]

Nice sequence, G-man. Thanks again for going extra mile to demo your point; you've done it fair and square.

I noticed that in your "Israeli draw" sequence you were bringing the gun to your weak side to rack it. To speed it up a bit you might try to cover the slide with your weak hand when the gun is just past the low ready point. As your strong hand goes up and forward, weak hand pinches the slide and then comes around to join strong hand on the grip. That may help you shave off a tenth or two. Not that you really need to do it any faster...

Mike

 

[G-ManBart]

Originally posted by Hoptob:
Nice sequence, G-man. Thanks again for going extra mile to demo your point; you've done it fair and square.

I noticed that in your "Israeli draw" sequence you were bringing the gun to your weak side to rack it. To speed it up a bit you might try to cover the slide with your weak hand when the gun is just past the low ready point. As your strong hand goes up and forward, weak hand pinches the slide and then comes around to join strong hand on the grip. That may help you shave off a tenth or two. Not that you really need to do it any faster...

Mike

Thanks! I'd like to see an overhead shot of that myself. I am pretty sure that I'm racking it roughly centered on my chest, but it could be a touch to the left...not sure and it's hard to say with that camer angle. The range there is sloped downwards a little bit left to right so the camera was slighly lower than where I was standing. Everything is a tradeoff in that racking it centered puts my support hand pretty close to where I normally complete my grip, so there's less time lost there, but the racking part isn't done as quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if they cancel each other out, but only the timer will tell for certain. I'll look at it some more as I'm all for finding out what works best under a given set of circumstances.

If I remember correctly, the Israeli technique has them shifting the gun hard to the left so that their elbows are pointing outwards like...dare I say it...chicken wings When they're rushing they'll actually shoot with the gun canted hard left. For close targets, that'll work, but it still takes practice like anything else.

What's sort of interesting is that the gun in the video is an STI Trojan in .40 S&W that I've upgraded (new fire control parts, trigger job, SV ambi safeties) and a Techwell magwell (about the only "racy" part on the gun. I was using up some old duty ammo (Speer GD 165gr JHPs) that we're going away from and they hit a couple of inches lower than my normal match load with 180gr JHPs....that's why those hits were mostly at the bottom of the box. I wanted to use standard carry type ammo rather than my match stuff because it's snappier and has more muzzle flip than my match stuff even though the velocity is almost identical between the two. Didn't want anyone saying I was using mouse fart loads

R,

 

[GatorFarmer]

Couple things -

The Izzies had the empty chamber institutionalized as a simple training shortcut. Way back when - circa '48 and thereabouts - the Izzies found themselves with a pile of assorted handguns left over from WW2. They had quite a few P-38s, but also BHPs, a few 1911s, and a variety of pocket autos. These guns were at one point issued from a central pool. If you were in danger, or doing something, you checked out a gun. This let them get more use out of a limited and mixed pool of weapons. Since Schlomo might get a P-38 one day and a BHP the next, the Izzies simply went to teaching condition three to avoid issues with "where's the safety?" and things of this nature. You'd just pull your gun, rack the slide and make it go bang. Relatively simple and makes sense given what they had to work with. It then became sort of "grandpa did it this way and it worked" so it persists. That doesn't mean that everyone in/from Israel does it, but it is common there and in their training.

Second, there really are still auto that aren't terribly safe to carry with a round chambered in circulation. These would include the old Ravens (lots still out), probably Hi Points, and a slew of other striker fired autos of often shoddy construction. Of course, you probably ought to upgrade if you carry one of these anyway.

Third, for the anecdotal information pile, I dropped a cocked and locked BHP (circa 2001 manufacture) with a round in the chamber. The gun landed muzzle first and skittered along the black top. It didn't go off. My Bianchi shoulder rig simply crapped out and dumped the gun.

I have heard of Beretta 92s going off when dropped, but only when someone was incorrectly thumb lowering the hammer down to the half cock notch instead of using the decocker.

 

[SM637+P]

Hmmmm...what is the defensive purpose of a firearm? should the weapon be unloaded? Man, don't think about this sh** and follow your instincts. Always shoot for the head, any shot. As far as technical characteristics of particular firearms, that is a specific matter of quite some debate. Don't confuse yourself.

 

[Evil One]

Originally posted by SM637+P:Always shoot for the head, any shot.

The head is a small fast moving target.
That is one HUGE reason center of mass shooting it taught.
Fast moving small target, high stress adrenaline pumping situation, drawing and getting on target quickly...
Thats a recipe for potential misses and the end of your time breathing my air.


Jim

 

[chainslinger]

I could see myself racking the slide, and having the same results as you...

I would probably carry my 10mm Caspian framed custom fully loaded, cocked and locked,

I DO carry Browning HP condition one in a shoulder holster on occasion

There are other guns, many of which are as worthy to carry as a Model 36 S&W snub

I carried a DA magnum revolver for many years as a cop, and a 1911 pattern gun off duty for an equal amount of time. After evaluating all the dangerous aand potentially dangerous situations I was in, including the disarming of bad guys on two different occasion on my own

the guy who hung his Glock on the hook in the toilet stall, only to have it bump the trigger as he was hanging it, and have it go off several times recoiling against the hook and trigger,
I have found that many autos aren't all that safe with a round in the chamber, but are still fine carry and defense guns.

have come to have a "feel" for iminent threats and danger, and shy of a "without warning, in-your-face" gun that I possibly won't see coming, I don't feel like I am THAT far behind to snag my gun and rack the slide. Once again, I know this is a trade off, and I am at risk in that statistically rare incident. If it makes one feel wasrm and fuzzy, and all that much more the master of their environment to be "cocked and locked, beat-you-to-the-draw ready", then so be it. I had a gun work it's way out of a holster once, too, in an examination room in a hospital. Didn't go off, but having a chamber loaded, tricked up auto hit a tile floor might still make me choke a bit until I recover from the fright and embarrasment.

I had to have the best equipment, trained hard, and wanted to be the fastest and best on my department. I trained to respond and place the bullet first if possible. Slowly, it became apparent to me that the multitude of factors that govern a gunfight make it impossible to insure a positive result everytime..

if gunplay was iminently likely, you got your gun out and ready ahead of time...chambers of shotguns for instance are usually charged after drawing the weapon from the vehicle


FICTION NOVELIST?????????????????????

 

[BarbC]

So where is the time savings of having to carry a tricked-out hair-trigger semi-auto that you have to chamber on the draw vs. a semi-auto with slightly harder trigger pull on a gun that's safe to carry with a round in the chamber?

 

[TwoGunsStanding]

Who mentioned hair trigger? I missed that one. I guess I'm seeing a lot of you envisioning a wild west, "we both-draw-at-the-same-time scenario", and of course, if one is the fastest, they win! As I said before, there are a lot of factors, things going on, before and during a confrontation, and weapon presentation is only one of them. My God, folks, chill out. I exempt all of you who have no need for a chamber empty weapon. If any of you have ever handled a Colt 1903 or 1908 Hammerless would know it's not a bad weapon, but finding and clearing the safety can be slower than racking the slide. One could carry it with sarety off al the time, fully charged, but that might not be smart. I love my little Colt, and I would hate to tell anyone that has one not to use it, especially if that was the only gun they had. I have others, and I use them too. Maybe I'll just hunker down and practice with just one gun and be the fastest I can be, so that if I ever meet with any of you speedsters, we can set up paper targets in a dark alley and go at it "Gunsmoke" style, but only side by side, so we can affirm how fast we are to each other. Come on, guys and gals, I love ya!! Don't get hostile on me.

 

[Richard Simmons]

Still wondering how you address the situation of having only one hand available and chambering a round? I'm perfectly aware of how to chamber a round with only one hand just wondering how you intend to handle it?

 

[jeffj13]

Originally posted by TwoGunsStanding:
.......... Let me ask you, how many gunfights have you been in where the difference in getting off your shot, and adding the time that it takes you to chamber a round and start the shooting would have cost you your life or being injured? ............

I am a noob and I have very little experience with handguns, but I know about insurance. Typically you don't buy insurance because of the probability of an event happening (the odds of me dying today is really small). You buy insurance because of the consequences of that event happening.

It would not matter to me if the probability of the type of gunfight mentioned above were one in a million. The consequences are too great. For that reason, when I get to the point if feeling comfortable carrying, I'll carry with a round chambered.

jeff

 

[BarbC]

It's not being hostile; it's being practical.

Why add another dimension to a stressful situation?

My DAO semi-auto guns are as safe to carry with a chambered round as a revolver is.

And I can unholster it and shoot it with one arm twisted up behind my back.