Chrome Lined Barrels and Chambers.....

[Travis15R]

Useless features being dust covers and forward assist. Unless your dragging your AR through the sand in Iraq why the hell would you need a dust cover? B/c you go to the range then stick it back in the gun safe after lol. The forward assist was not even an original feature of the AR, it was something that was added later on. If the round has not seated properly jamming it in w/ the forward assist is not going to help. Id rather drop the mag and remove the round and properly chamber it again.

Psssst. Sometimes changes are made to established specs to increase profit margins or meet a price point, not neccesarily enhance performance.

Oh right b/c all the points and articles and research that have gone into showing that melonite is a better coating then chrome means nothing.......b/c some guy on the internet said so

 

[oneyeopn]

Really, I know your just egging this on. But when you can show me comparable studies as to what I can show you we will discuss it. Until then it is settled. Data, something that proves the Chrome better and I will listen.
I also understand the business of procuring small arms for the military. If a weapons manufacturer wants to change something on a rifle to make it better they have to completely fund the project on the hope that they are dealing with the right people. That takes making a bunch of rifles with the change and sending them out on active service at the manufacturers cost plus any other breakdowns of the guns. This may take a year or two. In the mean time you are setting up tooling and spending the money to get full blown production of it.
Then after this, then the Joint Chiefs will authorize a couple of studies, funded by the manufacturer, it might happen, then again it might not plus it can be shut down or drug out by the military at any time.
For a manufacturer in order to make the best profit margin on the sales of the rifles, you need to sell as many of them that are exactly identical, Instead of having to set up for a lot of options you just purchase the identical tooling for your lines at the best cost, which means buy in bulk.
Once you get your production line going any changes you make cost you money. Whomever has the contract may want to consider going to a melonite type treatment. but the R&D money on a government contract is not there. So its not going to happen. Now....if someone in the government checks out this QDQ processing and thinks that it would be better if they can get approval to spend the money it will happen.
Right now they are working on the next generations of Military Small Arms and from the reports that I have read they are using it in some of the guns. I just remind myself that the TDP was established in the 60's with little more than barrel changes and cosmetic changes for the last almost 50 years. Yeah I remember tube type TV's and Stereo's that you fixed yourself.

 

[zotzer]

I've been selling to the Fed Gov for years. They are laggers. They will spec out minimum, tested, reliable standards....and they will lag by years on new/improved technologies. There is also a great deal of personal, corporate, and industry influences at work all of the time.

One thing I can tell you for sure.... A federal spec is by no means an indicator that something is "the best", simply that it is "good enough" and tested.

 

[KeithR]

Does the term "Good enough for government work" come to mind?

 

[VMaxSplat]

Useless features being dust covers and forward assist. Unless your dragging your AR through the sand in Iraq why the hell would you need a dust cover? B/c you go to the range then stick it back in the gun safe after lol. The forward assist was not even an original feature of the AR, it was something that was added later on. If the round has not seated properly jamming it in w/ the forward assist is not going to help. Id rather drop the mag and remove the round and properly chamber it again.

Once again, the Sport must be the ultimate since you own one. To justify that position, now other out of spec items like the dust cover and FA aren't needed. What a lame argument you guys make.

Oh right b/c all the points and articles and research that have gone into showing that melonite is a better coating then chrome means nothing.......b/c some guy on the internet said so

Once again, our military rifles have chrome bores per spec. Chrome has worked in combat, LE, and competition circles for years, yet we should believe it is substandard, contrary to my own experiences, because you and Grover feel the need to justify owning a lower tier AR? Get real.

 

[VMaxSplat]

I've been selling to the Fed Gov for years. They are laggers. They will spec out minimum, tested, reliable standards....and they will lag by years on new/improved technologies. There is also a great deal of personal, corporate, and industry influences at work all of the time.

One thing I can tell you for sure.... A federal spec is by no means an indicator that something is "the best", simply that it is "good enough" and tested.

You've been selling rifles to the government? Didn't think so.

You are broadening the subject base to unrelated areas. That said, since the armed forces are "laggers" and "lag behind for years on new/improved technologies", have you considered that MUCH new technology has resulted from military development. For example, how about GPS (darn, those laggers). How about the F22? Now there is a real example of lagging behind current technology.

 

[wass]

"Useless features being dust covers and forward assist. Unless your dragging your AR through the sand in Iraq why the hell would you need a dust cover? B/c you go to the range then stick it back in the gun safe after lol. The forward assist was not even an original feature of the AR, it was something that was added later on. If the round has not seated properly jamming it in w/ the forward assist is not going to help. Id rather drop the mag and remove the round and properly chamber it again."

The forward assist isn't used very often, but it can be useful if the bolt fails to lock due to a dirty chamber/bolt if it's necessary to discharge another round.

 

[Kodiakco]

...Once again, our military rifles have chrome bores per spec. Chrome has worked in combat, LE, and competition circles for years...

Non lined barrels are preferred in long range competition due to them being more accurate than chrome lined barrels...

 

[cyphertext]

Or buy a chrome lined M&P15 (which is what I did). To clarify, I like the M&P rifle line very much.

My issue here isn't that options deviating from the specs are terrible. For some they may make sense (price point). My issue is that people will buy an econo AR and then make false claims (the specs are outdated technology, chrome barrels are inaccurate, etc) to justify their purchase and claim that it is better than a top tier rifle that meets more of the mil spec. That just isn't true for many standard uses (competition, LE, home defense, etc).

In the end, we all get to buy what we want. For anyone new to the AR, it would be nice if they could come here and get accurate information to make a buying decision. That is why I am posting in this thread. Hopefully someone in cyber land will find the information I have posted helpful.

VMaxSplat, S&W has replaced the chrome lining with Melonite in their top of the line rifles....Look at the VTAC II, or the MOE...why do you think that is? I have some ideas, but eager to hear yours first.

 

[MichiganScott]

Chrome has worked in combat, LE, and competition circles for years,

I've never owned a competition grade High Power rifle with a chrome lined barrel because the top grade barrels aren't chrome lined. You simply can not get gilt edged accuracy with chrome, although the accuracy is acceptable for most uses.

Although I agree that you do not need a dust cover or forward assist, I don't own any rifles without them. They just don't look right without them as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Lost Lake]

I wouldn't buy a combat weapon without a forward assist.

It's there for a reason. A life-saving reason.

And they do work.

If you plan on only using your AR for the range and polishing it to show your buddies, then you don't need a forward assist.

But if you ever think your AR may one day be called on to save your butt, you need a forward assist.

 

[cyphertext]

I wouldn't buy a combat weapon without a forward assist.

It's there for a reason. A life-saving reason.

And they do work.

If you plan on only using your AR for the range and polishing it to show your buddies, then you don't need a forward assist.

But if you ever think your AR may one day be called on to save your butt, you need a forward assist.

You are correct, it is there for a reason...Reason being that the gov didn't follow the ammo specifications for the rifle and used a powder that burned dirty and fouled the chamber and gas tube. Once the powder was switched, that problem went away.

The original design did not have a forward assist. The requirement for the forward assist was also a hold over from the M-1 Garand and the M-14. Both of these rifles had the bolt carrier connected to the operating rod or charging handle. If it failed to chamber a round, you could smack the rod or charging handle and force the bolt into battery. The M-16 bolt is not attached to the charging handle, so the Army wanted something like they had on previous rifles. Stoner gave them the indention on the bolt, but they didn't like that.

Anyway, if you like a forward assist, then get one. I don't feel it is necessary on a civilian rifle, and to suggest that you can not protect your home and loved ones with a firearm that does not have a forward assist is simply ludicrous. Life and property have been protected with firearms that are a whole lot less than an AR-15 that does not have a forward assist.

 

[oneyeopn]

Oh and believe me I know my Sport is not the Best out there. Not by a long shot. But what it is, a good value, quality construction, extremely accurate Sporting Rifle for people like me who would rather take it out and run it through its paces alot without worrying about how much money it cost.

Believe me if I had the money, I would have one with a monolithic upper, and I know a company that produces match barrels with the 1:8 5R rifling, melonite treated. Heck yeah I could spend a lot of money. But my Sport does the job. Only time will tell down the long road how long the melonite lasts but I like it.

 

[VMaxSplat]

I've never owned a competition grade High Power rifle with a chrome lined barrel because the top grade barrels aren't chrome lined. You simply can not get gilt edged accuracy with chrome, although the accuracy is acceptable for most uses.

Yep, I see your point and should clarify my earlier statement. When I talk competition, I am referencing 3 gun matches. Should have made that clear.

There are 3 gun competitors that use unlined, stainless, etc but chrome stands tall in its ability to keep up with the round count and heat generated in a competition rifle.

 

[garfy]

The first few S&W M&P15 I bought had chrome lined barrels.

I've noticed lately that none of the barrels that S&W was putting out on the Civilian Models was chrome lined.

I won't have a AR that is not a Stainless Barrel or a Chrome Lined Barrel and Chamber. For me its a matter of ease of extraction on my guns.

Anybody else have any comments on this???

Rule 303

Actually, according to S&W's own website, the M&P15 Rifle and a couple of other models (ORC, etc.) have a chromed barrel, gas key & bolt. That's the model I happened to have bought because Sports Authority only had that model and the Sport and I didn't want the cheapest model. From what I've read, it seems that the melonite coating is very durable and more than adequate for our civilian semi-auto use. If we had full auto, then the chrome barrel would supposedly have an advantage. For me, it didn't matter; I'd have been happy even with the melonite barrel (for as much shooting as I do). I think that some of these things are beginning to sound like the "Ford vs. Chevy" or "Honda vs. Toyota" kind of arguments. For my uses, I don't think the accuracy difference between barrels, etc. at 400 yards matters much; my shooting distance is more like 20 yards max (home defense).

 

[Travis15R]

Once again, the Sport must be the ultimate since you own one. To justify that position, now other out of spec items like the dust cover and FA aren't needed. What a lame argument you guys make.

lol, your the one justifying your purchase. I'm happy with what I have, congrats on paying for for options will will probably never need or use. So some how your AR functions and preforms better then mine b/c it has a dust cover? Show me the complied data of failed ejections, fireing and loading due to no dust covers then get back to me. We can agree to disagree but I by no means need or have no reason for a dust cover or forward assist and while it can be useful in some cases how often is it "really needed" and unless I go play war games on a beach I'll probably be just fine w/ no dust cover considering lots of other weapons do not have then and function just fine and I still stand by the fact that the actual complied data shows an advantage of melonite over chrome lined.

 

[Lost Lake]

Forward assists are also great for follow up after a weak load, dented cases, dirt or grit in the chamber, etc.

On my hand guns I can smack the slide forward. On an internal bolt you need a forward assist.

 

[Travis15R]

Forward assists are also great for follow up after a weak load, dented cases, dirt or grit in the chamber, etc.

On my hand guns I can smack the slide forward. On an internal bolt you need a forward assist.

Its not useless in all cases, what these are used for most of the time I dont believe it is needed. Would I be upset if I bought an AR that did have one...Nope but for what "I" am going to use this particular gun for its not needed. I had a dented case just last week that did not properly go into the chamber. I did not need a forward assist to fix the problem.

 

[VMaxSplat]

lol, your the one justifying your purchase. I'm happy with what I have, congrats on paying for for options will will probably never need or use. So some how your AR functions and preforms better then mine b/c it has a dust cover? Show me the complied data of failed ejections, fireing and loading due to no dust covers then get back to me. We can agree to disagree but I by no means need or have no reason for a dust cover or forward assist and while it can be useful in some cases how often is it "really needed" and unless I go play war games on a beach I'll probably be just fine w/ no dust cover considering lots of other weapons do not have then and function just fine and I still stand by the fact that the actual complied data shows an advantage of melonite over chrome lined.

It isn't me making claims against established standards. You are. The data is on my side of this argument. After 50 years of refinement by the US military the specs call for FA/dust cover/chromed bore. If anyone needs to produce data to back up their claims, it's you. The bottom line though, is that these deviations from spec are solely to meet a price point/profit margin. Nothing more.

The more you post, it becomes more and more obvious that you have little experience with hard use of the AR15 platform. That is OK, but don't mislead others with misinformation.

Let me clarify my position on the M&P15 Sport and other lower tier AR type rifles. They are fine for range use for folks that can't or won't pay for an upper tier rifle. They are fun to shoot, like any AR. My problem is with folks that make nonfactual claims on an open web forum where someone might be on seeking information to make a buying decision. That someone might be looking for a home defense or duty weapon and need the "real thing".

BTW, I have "used" the features you claim I overpaid for while firing tens of thousands of 556 rounds.

 

[JaPes]

Please oh please let this typical AR15 minutiae pissing match thread die already.