Concerns with my "new" 4516-1 (advice needed)

Rifleman762

Rifleman762

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So I recieved a used 4516-1 today that I'm planning on pairing with my 4566TSW as a duty weapon. I stripped it down for a good cleaning, and noticed a few things that concerned me.


image_zpszdw29a7x.jpg


First, the sideplate assemble was loose. The "pin" and the "sideplate" don't don't fit together tightly anymore, causing the slideplate to drop off the pin. I ordered a spare for my 4506 (black, possibly mim). Would that fit the 4516-1?

image_zps8bxu4weq.jpg


Second, I noticed it has a slim guide rod and dual recoil springs (like a -2). However, it doesn't have a bushing to make up for the slimmer rod. Problem?

As this is a duty weapon, I need it to be 100% reliable like it's big brothers have been. Any advice/input would be very much appreciated. Thank you.
 
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Can you tell if that sideplate's bent?

Per the S&W parts catalog, the 4516 sideplate is #108600000 & the later version 4506 (R1) has the same number while the 4506's earlier version is #106990000. No idea if there's a material different between them. Which one did you order?

Without that bushing I don't think it's going to be good for the springs but one of the experts will be along later to advise further.

.
 
Thanks for the replies. FYI, I won't be carrying this gun until I shoot at least 500 rounds through it. I won't be shooting it until I get the problems fixed.

I ordered part #106990000. It was the only one for the 4506 that I could find. Figured it was cheap, and if it didn't work for the 4516-1 I'd save it as a spare for the 4506. The sideplate wasn't bent.

image_zpsof1vqkls.jpg

image_zpstyztvtyg.jpg

The dual recoil springs on the guide rod. I don't know if this is what normal is supposed to look like, but it looks strange to me.
 
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That's what they look like. Most of the factory blue paint is gone from them of course.

You might read thru these threads. This single ISMI flat recoil spring substitute might work better since you don't have the bushing. It's got a flat face/surface & slightly larger diameter than the factory dual round springs. I didn't have that problem & I forget off the top of my head right now on the details.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-...ls/341184-springs-binding-my-shorty-45-a.html

.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-...3665-bmcm-tested-approved-4516-2-springs.html

.
PS: You might post in the Semi-Automatic section later if you don't get any more follow-ups here.

.
 
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Congrats on your 4516-1. Fine duty gun or off duty gun as well. I've used it as both.

It appears to me, based on your photo of the muzzle, that the small bushing enabling use of the skinny rod and dual recoil springs, is installed already. It doesn't come out of the tunnel in the dustcover during field stripping.

If so, I would just install the new sideplate and call it good. After firing a few hundred rounds to test function of course. Good luck! Regards 18DAI

Edited to add: Upon enlarging the pic that appears to me to be a coil of the recoil spring I am seeing. NOT the bushing. So you WILL need a bushing to use the skinny rod - UNLESS you use the flatwire recoil springs that member BMCM has shown us how to use in our compact 4516's. Search the "new springs causing problems with my 4516" thread on this page for links to BMCMs excellent posts and advice on using the flatwire upgrade.
 
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Thanks for the reply 18DAI. The picture I posted before is a little misleading.. the visable metal surrounding the guide rod is actually the spring. I'll try to post a pic of it without the spring for comparison. For me, the flatwire isn't going to be an option. The internals of my pistol must be factory parts, per my department policy (yeah, yeah, I know).

Just so you know 18DAI, your past posts regarding your love of your 4516 as a plainclothes (and court) duty weapon is what sparked my interest in getting one. So thank you again for that. On a side note you'll be glad to hear there are still many 3rd gen smiths (mostly of the 4506 variety) on the hips of many lawmen in my department, especially those with tenure.
 
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OP...I am no expert but your pic of the nested springs installed on your guide look to me to be some kind of contorted ......I haven't used the nested springs in a while now but I agree something does not look right....I have used the flat wire spring mentioned in the linked posts for over 500 rounds now with nary a problemo:D.......
 
Yes, I have the same feeling as you. Looking at my springs on the guide rod my first reaction was "Oh no, this can't be right".

That flatwire spring sure seems like the way to go. Unfortunately, my department requires my parts to be factory. I'm sure a wolff spring here or there wouldn't catch any heat (especially when S&W stops making them), but the flatwire is obviously a different (and better) animal than factory.
 
Rifleman762 Thanks for the kind words. And welcome to the forum!

Yea, I am a proponent of these pistols. Accurate and reliable. We qualify twice a year and I always do well with my 4516-3. Then again I do pretty well with my 4506-1 and 4566 too. ;) I am the only one using a S&W 45 with my agency, unless you count the kids using the Tupperware guns. I've got mostly silver colored hair and am eligible for retirement at the end of the year. Not that I will.

I had heard from a few LAPD friends that the S&W 3rd gen 45s were very popular out there. Very good LE guns, IMO and experience. I hope to get out there some time for a visit. I have a standing invitation to shoot at the range and get lunch at Phillipes. I would love to do so!

I hope you will post some of your experiences with 3rd gen LE use on the west coast. Always interested in reading about LAPD's finest. Best regards, 18DAI
 
Hi Rifleman762,

Since your gun is equipped with the nested spring assembly it should have a small reducing bushing installed in the slide's spring tunnel from the inside.

That bushing removed looks like this:
IMG_6991.jpg


If your gun lacks that bushing, I'd venture the nested spring set is not original to that arm. The 4516-1 version typically is seen with a 0.290" diameter aluminum guiderod and a single 20 coil 16lb spring. That nested spring setup with the 0.236" solid stainless guiderod applies to all the other 4516 variants (4516no dash, 4516-2 & -3)

I'd not run the gun in that condition. The concern here is under firing stresses the end coil of the inner spring could work it's way into the gap around the guiderod and tie up the gun.

There are a few ways to fix your issue here....

You can have a bushing made to fit the slide and the skinny guiderod then stay with the nested spring set. Anyone with some skill and a metal lathe can make one of those bushings in mere minutes.

or...

Install a flatwire spring on the skinny guiderod in place of the nested springs. I run one of these springs in my 4516-1:
ISMI Glock Compact 20lb Recoil Spring G19,23,25,32,38

or...

Restore to factory condition. You'll need a 4516-1 guiderod and the single coil spring. S&W no longer produces either of these parts. However, Wolff makes single springs in a variety of weights for that gun. And, it just so happens I have a couple of those old guiderods to spare if you can't find one.

Strickly speaking of reliable functioning and your agency policy of factory parts notwithstanding I'd go with the flatwire spring.

If we want reliability and complaince with the factory parts policy, have someone make a bushing for that gun and stay with the nested spring set.

Oh and your sideplate is just plain broke. The hammer pin should be permanently affixed. The good news is you can use just about any sideplate from any large frame 3rd gen gun. Any 45xx or 10xx or even a black one from a 457 will work. The prefered part though is the 108600000 R1 or revision 1 which reinforced the attachment of the hammer pin to the plate. However, the 106990000 is dimensionally identical and will fit just fine. I have that part installed in two of my guns.

Cheers
Bill
 
18DAI, PM me if/when you decide to make the trip and we can meet up for a cup.
As far as 3rd gens on the west coast, I only see CHP with their .40 cals and LAPD, mostly with .45s. The 4506/4566 has a cult following in LAPD, and you still see many of them hanging off sam brownes from oldschool drop leg swivel holsters. Mostly, they are used by officers with 10 year or more on the job, as younger cops who were issued the glock/MP have to attend a special course. I know many officers who jumped on the glock bandwagon (especially with glock 21s) once they became approved, but ended up back to their good old S&W .45.

Me personally, as strange as it sounds.... I've noticed the old S&W .45 commands respect on the street. My partner used to joke about how often badguys would be non complaint with officers at gun point until I showed up and they were looking at the business end of my 4506. Part of it was probably command presence, but I'm certain part of it was the intimadation factor of seeing the huge stainless handcannon. We also qualify with our handguns once every 2 months, and my highest scores have always been with my 4506/4566. Another reason I switched back from glock 21 along time ago.

Its also important to note that though our SWAT team (D Platoon, in our elite Metropolitian Division) carries 1911 .45s, most of the Metropolitian Division Line Platoon officers I see carry 3rd gen S&W .45s. So that's saying something. Anyway, I could go on and on but I fear I would just bore people. :)

BMCM, thank you for the informative reply sir. I have followed many of your past posts and your work is absolutely amazing. I am honored to have the advice of a true 3rd gen wizard such as yourself.

I ordered a flatwire spring, and I'm going to take it to a department armourer and see if he'll approve it. If that doesn't work, I'll have to try to get an original guide rod and a wolff spring. Eitherway, with S&W discontinuing springs for this gun... it seems like using an aftermarket one eventually be will be unavoidable.
 
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Rifleman762 will do! I agree, few firearms have the intimidation factor of the 4506. Maybe a 12 gauge has more..........maybe. While command presence is the primary factor, you couple that with a large stainless 45 and you have a winning combination.

I am really not surprised that so many officers carry the S&W 45's. If there was more of a choice here locally, many officers I know would switch to the 4566. 1911's, not so much.

The Glock 21, while used by many locally, is not as popular as the Glock 30. Many agencies locally have gone to the Glock 30SF as standard issue.

I looked at the Glock 30S that your SIS squad developed a few years back. Shot well, but I didn't care for the recoil pulse and the gap between the mag and frame pinched my hand while firing.

My very favorite carry 45 is still the 4513TSW. The original with the 6-round mag and no rail. My 4516-3 is a very close 2nd place. Both are bet your life reliable and more accurate than I am.

Please feel free to "go on" as much as you like! We all enjoy hearing about the experiences of others. I always learn something valuable from others who have BTDT.

I look forward to reading more of your posts. Good luck at the armorer! Bring him some Starbucks and a pastry, couldn't hurt. ;) Stay safe! Best regards, 18DAI
 
18DAI, are you telling me that the glock 30 is a popular gun with uniformed officers in your area? That would be very strange as it's a compact weapon. I carried one for a while in plain clothes, and though I liked it... I had an issue where I couldn't fully rack the slide with a round in the chamber and a full mag. It was like it was binding up on something. I spoke to department armourers and they informed me this was a known issue with the glock 30. Never felt comfortable with that, considering if I have a failure to fire, racking that slide becomes pretty important. No thanks, I'll stick to my 4516-1.

A little bit of an update, I've been PMing with BMCM. I'm going to try to get a bushing for my current guide rod. This would allow me to run my factory dual springs and keep things in policy with my department. I'll still be able to use the flatwire and Spring Co. aftermarket dual springs once I can no longer get the S&W replacements.

I love these old S&W 45s. It's just a real shame that S&W isn't giving them the support that they used to.
 
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I'm just surprised that departments are going to compact guns for patrol officers. I've heard of departments issuing the G26 as well. Odd!
 
Hi Rifleman762, YES. The agency we qualify with, the XXXXXX (deleted upon 2nd thought ;) ) Police Department, went to the Glock 30SF as agency issue, to uniformed patrol and detectives a few years back. 2011-2012? One size fits all, evidently.

It would be strange until one considers that the chief <NOT a "gun guy"> was not happy that two female recruits, a female supervisor and a couple of WD's could not post qualifying scores (70) with the Glock 21.

The Glock 21 is still authorized and some of the patrol officers who have some height and weight (and can shoot! :) ) still carry it. Though all the participants at last qualification I attended were shooting G30's. That class was mostly new officers and some "administrators" with two female officers thrown in.

Thanks for the info on the G30. Interesting. I will pass that on to a few friends who use it. Best regards, 18DAI
 
That sounds like an administrator with very little field time making that decision. I like compacts, I tend to shoot very well with them, but if I was working uniform I'd want a full size. Infact my department only allows compacts for detectives and u/c officers. I know many "narcs" who carry fullsize guns unless they are making a buy (the detective next to me is packing his 4506).

By the way, BMCM is a stand up guy. He's really been helping me out behind the scenes and is sending me a part to get my .45 up and running. The members of this forum are lucky to have him around.
 
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I've seen many Glocks choke on the range. Glock 22's and 21's in particular.

Some were operator error, filthy gun, lack of proper maintenance, poor grip. Others were gun problems. Quite a few failures to go bang with the Glock 21. Mostly FTE's and FTF's with the Glock 22. Particularly when equipped with weapon mounted lights.

I've never bought into the myth of "Glock Perfection". In fact, the only Tupperware guns I own say HK on the slide. ;) Yea, HK's customer service may be lacking, but I wouldn't know. Because in almost 20 years of owning HK handguns, I've yet to need customer service. :) Regards 18DAI
 
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