Converting J frame to shoot 9mm

[JimCunn]

"from what i understand the accuracy is ok at 21+/- feet. but rapidly deteriorates beyond that range".

I have three of these conversions. Accuracy is OK at 100 feet.
147gr jhp 9mm chronos 952 fps average for 292 ft-lbs muzzle energy which is adequate.

Only downside is that recoil is quite painful.

 

[VASCAR2]

I used to shoot a lot of 9 MM cast bullets that a Friend and I cast. The first sizing die we had was a .355 and got key holes out of my 39-2. We started using the .358” sizing die on our 9 MM bullets and got very good accuracy. I also loaded some 90 grain .355” Sierra JHP in 38 Specials. I shot these in my model 60 as I liked the higher velocity compared to heavier 38/357 bullets. We used a taper crimp or roll crimp on 9 MM bullets we loaded in 38 Special brass. We never had any bullets move under recoil.

The only real disadvantage of reloading the 90 grain .355 bullets in the 38 Special was the point of impact was low in the model 60 compared to heavier 38/357 bullets. Plenty good enough for typical self defense use but they shot pretty low at 50 yards.

 

[JimCunn]

"Have no background on this conversion but one might think that shooting a round that's .355 out of a bore that's .357 would result in a good bit of blowby past the slug. Don"

Since the Saami specs for land and groove diameter are identical for 9mm, .38Sp, and .357 Mag, it seems to make no difference in blowby. At least it isn't a problem in my three J-frame conversions. Neither is crimp jump.

There are four reasons for doing the conversion
1) most of my other handguns are 9mm
2) 9mm is (was) substantially cheaper than .38Sp and .357 Mag
3) 9mm has considerably more power than .38 Sp due to the 35,000 psi pressure
4) And the most important - as a lark - because I can. I've converted three of them

The only downside is that 147gr 9mm recoil in a 12 ounce J-frame is quite painful.
Also, I'm a couple of months away from 80, and no longer a very good shot. One handed at 50 feet, I'm only getting coke can accuracy. Today, at 50 feet one-handed, I was shooting an inch and a half left and an inch and a half low. Pretty crappy, but it was me, not the J-frame.

 

[pctech]

Jim,

Have you had any issues running 9mm ammo in the aluminum airweight frame designed for .38 special?

The 9mm round is much higher pressure than .38 special, so I was surprised you used a 637 for the conversion rather than a .357 magnum caliber J-frame.

 

[JimCunn]

I was going for minimum weight, and the 637 is much lighter than the .357 J-frames. That's also why I used titanium .357Mag cylinders and center pins - to knock another couple of ounces off the weight. Only problem I've encountered is that the guns' recoil is quite painful when shooting 147gr 9mm. Since I like exposed hammers, the 637 is a good choice for me.

I haven't had any frame problems, but if one of them does fail, I consider them to be consumables - I'll just replace it.

Each of my three aluminum J-frames has three complete yoke and cylinder assemblies. The stock yoke and steel .38Sp, a yoke and titanium .357Mag cylinder (I haven't fired .357Mag in these, but they are great for .38Sp), and a yoke and titanium .357Mag cylinder reamed for 9x19 (one will also accept 9x23, but I ain't gonna try that either). I have developed a strong preference for the three 9mm assemblies.

 

[JimCunn]

Deleted duplicate post

 

[JimCunn]

I lost my shooting skills when I developed cataracts several years ago. Now that my eyes are fixed and back to normal, I've started shooting again. My J-frame skills haven't returned yet, and pattern, such as it is, is total ****. Shooting the 9mm J-frame conversion at a hundred feet today, most shots hit a paper plate (there were a bunch of the plates in the kitchhen - hope my wife doesn't miss them), but about one shot in five was a flyer. Hopefully I will improve with more practice. Wish me luck.

P.S. This forum auto corrects you to asterisks if you attempt to spell 'cr*p'

 

[JimCunn]

"I think this idea of converting tevolvers to 9mm has become a "because I can and want to" exercise. Nothing wrong with that".

That's a lot of the reason I did my first one. Curiosity driven. I liked it so much better than .38Sp and .357Mag that I did two more. The 9mm conversions have become my primary carry.

 

[Liquidm17]

I would assume this would void the warranty from Smith and Wesson. Would it make sense to get a spare cylinder and have that modified?

 

[John Patrick]

I think the only viable reason for a 9mm conversion is that short, tapered 9mm cases clear a chamber with even short ejector rods, and moon clips are fast to reload.

And if speed of reload after five shots is a significant factor is your choice of carry weapon you ought to be looking for a P365.

 

[StrawHat]

…And if speed of reload after five shots is a significant factor is your choice of carry weapon you ought to be looking for a P365…

John,

Not bad advice but it does not take into consideration the few folks like me who have 5 plus decades experience with revolvers and maybe one year total experience with self loaders. I am not comfortable with self loaders. So, a revolver would naturally be my choice. If 9mm were my cartridge of choice, converting a J or K frame would be my answer.

Kevin

 

[JimCunn]

"Would it make sense to get a spare cylinder and have that modified?"

That's what I did. Each of my three J-frames has three complete cylinder and yoke assemblies.
1) the original, unmodified .38Sp cylinder and yoke
2) an unmodified titanium .357Mag cylinder and yoke
3) a .357 Mag titanium cylinder and yoke reamed for 9x19.

A total of nine cylinder assemblies for three guns.

 

[SuperMan]

"Would it make sense to get a spare cylinder and have that modified?"

That's what I did. Each of my three J-frames has three complete cylinder and yoke assemblies.
1) the original, unmodified .38Sp cylinder and yoke
2) an unmodified titanium .357Mag cylinder and yoke
3) a .357 Mag titanium cylinder and yoke reamed for 9x19.

A total of nine cylinder assemblies for three guns.

...agreed...main reason is that if one fired a +P .38 Special round in the altered cylinder it will bulge the brass somewhat causing sticky extraction...

Had TK do three cylinders for me:
66-2 3"
60-10 3"
649-2 2"

All three will run .38 Super and 9mm. Zero issues with accuracy with any of them. Have not run any of them with 9mm +P ammo yet as I usually shoot .38 Super in them but the 942 and Ruger LCRs that I've had would lock up with some +P rounds...

Bob

pics are 7-10 yards with .38 Super...which is a GREAT round for a snubbie...

 

[John Patrick]

Strawhat,

I love my revolvers, so I’m not dissing revolvers. Just questioning the idea that converting a J frame to 9mm is the better course of action.

For the cost of a 9mm conversion you can buy a P365 of G43X and enough ammo to become familiar and proficient.

But with Buffalo Bore and another couple manufacturers offering 38spl ammo that equals or betters 9mm or 9mm + P ammo (and ignoring “mild” 357 options,) and the cost of a moon clip job, you have matched or exceeded 9mm performance at a fraction of the cost.

John

 

[michpatriot]

Some of us are still waiting for our revolvers to malfunction even one time....every pocketable semi I've tried over the many many years has not given me the warm fuzzy reliability I've had from j frames, just the opposite in fact.. Decades of proven reliability is hard to replace. I can not remember even one revolver malfunction in my hand, in my life. There will be some that say they have had lots of malfunctions surely, but I only can speak to my personal experience..others like to quote their buddy..I don't care about his problems..others might, but not me.

 

[Screwball]

I love my revolvers, so I’m not dissing revolvers. Just questioning the idea that converting a J frame to 9mm is the better course of action.

For the cost of a 9mm conversion you can buy a P365 of G43X and enough ammo to become familiar and proficient.

When I converted my 642… I was looking at switching the revolver out for a 9mm LCR. My dad had a .357 version that I compared. Stuck with the 642. This was 2014/2015… but if Ruger had a 9mm LCRx at that time, I’d probably have gone that route (SA option is nice to have).

Biggest thing, my J-frame wasn’t a new gun. It was a backup gun for years. Like I’m pretty sure I bought it in the fall of 2009. Let’s call it five years… five years of training on the same gun. Trigger, draw, and reloading to an extent (went from HKS speedloaders to moonclips). Then all the holsters and accessories. Gun had the Apex Duty/Carry kit, LG-405, but the bigger upgrade was refinishing it in NP3 Plus. While a P938, which I purchased around that same time, would be a close option… if I sold the J-frame, I’d lose A LOT. There really wasn’t the carry options around that same time that there are today (Shield might have just came out but wasn’t interested), so it is a very different time period.

My main reason for going with the conversion was to get away from other calibers. At that time, I had .380, .38 Special, .45 ACP, and issued a 9mm. After this happened… .380 and 9mm were the end result (hard to get rid of the LCP). Left that agency, moved to my current one… which issued .40, but was switching to 9mm within a year of me getting hired. And the duty ammo is pretty close to what I carry (147 grain).

.38 definitely works, but 9mm is a better cartridge. Converting a .38 revolver, you lose all the issues with casings getting hung up on the grip or getting under the extractor. You extract a 9mm moonclip… you got positive extraction with a .38 length ejection rod. But the power jump was the biggest benefit. I used to carry .38 Hornady CD (110 grain, +P)… currently carry 9mm Hornady XTP (147 grain, standard pressure). I get a heavier round doing the same velocity as the .38 load. Big win!

Is a 9mm revolver for everyone? Not at all. But the benefits for some people definitely outweigh the negatives. And in the end of the day, if it works for you… that is the bigger part of the equation.

 

[John Patrick]

Pretty typical high quality 9mm +P - NO BARREL LENGTH NOTED
Caliber: 9mm Luger +P
Bullet Type: HST
Bullet Weight: 124 GR
Muzzle Energy: 396 ft lbs
Muzzle Velocity: 1200 fps

Buffalo Bore 158gr 38spl +P SWCHP-GC

➤ 1,040 fps (379 ft. lbs.) -- S&W mod. 60, 2-inch
➤ 1,059 fps (393 ft. lbs.) -- S&W mod. 66, 2.5-inch
➤ 1,143 fps (458 ft. lbs.) -- Ruger SP101, 3-inch
➤ 1,162 fps (474 ft. lbs.) -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4-inch

The cleaner extraction of 9mm is a point, but having the same revolver cut for moon clips with 38spl gets you pretty much there, at at a fraction of the cost. Trade in the revolver and get a P365 or G43X and more than enough ammo (when you include 38spl moon clip cut costs, more when you include conversion costs) to become proficient, in a smaller, thinner package with about equal weight compared to an AirWeight with a reload.

As far as high quality revolver reliability vs the modern high quality 9mms, I don’t believe there is any difference.

Not counting 22lr revolvers or autos, both of which are problematic, I haven’t had an issue with an auto in two decades for an auto made in that time period. Same with the one revolver I own from within that period, a 638. I’ve had reliability issues with a 19-5 and a Colt’s Diamondback, but they are older and we’re used when I bought them, so who knows for sure the history? Older 1911s we’re always a pita.

 

[JimCunn]

I've been shooting J-frames as primary for over fifty years and like them; have no desire to change. Conversion cost and cost of ammunition isn't a factor. I shoot 147gr jhp xtp for average 952fps and 292 ft-lb out of a 1-7/8 inch barrel, which is adequate, and accuracy is OK out to a hundred feet. More power than that, and recoil pain starts becoming a bit of an issue in a 12 ounce gun.

 

[Screwball]

I love how when power is brought up, people always reference Buffalo Bore. [emoji1787] Legitimately wonder how many actually carry/train with it… at almost $40 for 20 rounds.

I got that beat… checking MidwayUSA, Hornady XTP 147 grain is $32 for 25 rounds. Prior to COVID, it was $17.50 per box. Cheapest I purchased that same load for was $11.25 per box (2015-2016 time period).

But the best deal… extra Winchester Ranger 147 grain for free (two boxes for 6 months of carry, so end up with about a box each year). In about a year… it will be Speer G2 147 grain.

The cleaner extraction of 9mm is a point, but having the same revolver cut for moon clips with 38spl gets you pretty much there, at at a fraction of the cost.

Not really…

Take a 9mm and .38 Special and stand them up side by side. Notice that the loaded 9mm is about the same length as a .38 Special case. So, tell me how .38 Special in moon clips is the same in regards to extraction as 9mm in moon clips…

A .38 ejector rod is sized to adequately remove .38/.357 cases. Whether it does that, especially in snub revolvers… you could argue back/forth with people all day. But when the OAL of the cartridge is shorter, you will get a more positive ejection than longer cartridges. Even loaded, the 9mm’s bullets clear the chambers easily. Same could be said shooting .45 Colt in a .460 revolver.

So, you’ve never had an empty .38 or .357 case get hung up on the grips? Getting under the extractor isn’t as common, but it does happen (moon clips do prevent the latter, but now you have even more of an awkward mass that you are trying to clear the cylinder/frame/grips). If I’m reloading at the range, both instances suck… but can be cleared with a little patience. If it is a two way range, I prefer it not to come up.

Trade in the revolver and get a P365 or G43X and more than enough ammo (when you include 38spl moon clip cut costs, more when you include conversion costs) to become proficient, in a smaller, thinner package with about equal weight compared to an AirWeight with a reload.

Again, you are incorrect…

An unloaded P365 weights just over what my 642 loaded (17 verses 16.5 ounces). If I remember correctly, I think loaded weight is like 23 ounces.

Glock 43X… unloaded is just under 18 ounces. Loaded… just a little over 23 ounces.

Here is a picture of the three stock guns in an overlay. Screenshot from Visually Compare Pistol And Revolver Dimensions, Weight, Capacity, And More | Handgun Hero

Personally, size is very subjective, as I feel the J-frame is smaller. Notice that while the barrel slightly pops out past the P365’s muzzle… how much slide extends past the rear of the 642.

And that just talks about the guns… not even reloads. Magazines weigh more than moon clips and my Del Fatti carriers.

I’ve stated already that I’ve been carrying that 642 since before either of those guns were released. Think the original Glock 43 was coming out around the time I did that conversion… and to be fair, I wasn’t a huge Glock guy back then. Only reason I shoot them now is because my agency issued me one… but carrying it off duty, it only happens when I fly (required to carry duty gun when flying armed… if I could carry my J-frame instead, I would).

But where it kind of annoys me with your post is the whole “trade it in for X.” How about I do what I want in regards to my firearms purchases? I mean, unless you are paying for the gun and ammo… it really isn’t much of your business. If I’m happy with my J-frame and always carry it… what is that to you? I don’t make my firearm decisions based on what other people feel, because at the end of the day… my money, my time (training), and my life.

As far as high quality revolver reliability vs the modern high quality 9mms, I don’t believe there is any difference.

You may believe whatever you wish. That is completely your right.

I do agree, most handguns out now are pretty reliable… especially when you look back at history. Even still, I definitely recommend to put it thru it’s paces prior to carrying it… as all companies can have issues.

But that being said, I trust my J-frame to run 100%. It has been doing so since late 2009, and in 9mm since mid-2015. It isn’t anywhere near to being retired… and will continue to be my off duty carry for quite the foreseeable future. If that bothers anyone… sorry, but not sorry.

I will add that I’m not arguing people should carry 9mm revolvers over everything else. I rarely suggest snub revolvers to people because they are training intensive. When I first tested my 642 on a public range, I had a RO tell me he will show me how to shoot it. New target at 15 yards… had him shoot 5 rounds; three hit the target, one miss on paper, last one likely missed paper, looking like the person got hit with a partial pattern of buckshot. I shoot… five rounds in a 2” group. If someone feels a snub is a good gun for them, I’ll ask how much are they planning on shooting it throughout the year. Less than a box… go with something else (I’d say a few boxes spread thru the year… but money/time can be difficult for some). Need to practice, which a big help is dry-fire practice (my LG-405 is on there mainly for that).

All my posts should be taken as why I made the conversion to 9mm and why I still carry it. If someone is interested/has more questions, shoot me a message and I’ll give as much info as requested.

 

[JimCunn]

Carry choice is mostly about trust.
I have 3 Airweight 9mm J-frames.
I trust them.
I have 8 Automatics in various calibers.
I like them, but don't trust them - so J-frames are primary.
I don't perceive relative power as an issue.