That SN in no way resembles a factory stamped SN from the era in which that pistol was manufactured. Whether or not it's the correct SN is not for me to say . . .
Curious Mod 10-5
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kwill1911
Member
That gun started as an Army contract Model 10 and there aren't many around. But that number on the butt would be a showstopper for me. As a practical matter it might never be an issue but I would not want to risk a felony conviction on a $250 revolver. There is not much ambiguity about the BATF's position.
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Prophammer:
Just to clarify something, you said in your original post it was rusty and worn everywhere, which is not the gun in your photos, so did you already refinish it?
Also, in reference to your question about the U.S. stamp on the backstrap, the Air Force apparently did receive some Model 10's so marked. See the link to the older thread I've pasted below:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/360406-model-10-us-marked.html
Just to clarify something, you said in your original post it was rusty and worn everywhere, which is not the gun in your photos, so did you already refinish it?
Also, in reference to your question about the U.S. stamp on the backstrap, the Air Force apparently did receive some Model 10's so marked. See the link to the older thread I've pasted below:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/360406-model-10-us-marked.html
But what about the back side of the extractor?
Here is a Model 10-5 s/n D571184 that shipped in February 1973. Note there is no s/n on the barrel flat or rear face of cylinder but . . . lo and behold . . . there it is on the rear face of the extractor star (I apologize the s/n stamping on this example is not as legible as most)
IF I were wanting to know more about this revolver's history I would look there and start my research with the real serial number.
Russ
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Yes I had already re-finished, not to mension several hours of fitting and getting things properly timed. A lot of work to end up having it destroyed. The way things are shaping up I'll likely strip it to the frame and either destroy and forget or turn it in. Like I said I paid almost nothing for it, no real loss financially.
OP
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Thanks for the pics, there is no number on the rear face of the extractor either. It's clean.
Art Doc
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
1. It's amazing to me how many S&Ws with altered or removed serials turn up being discussed on thise forum. Makes me wonder how many such guns are out there?
2. A military gun is far more likely to have the serial removed in my experience. Often when a GI brings a handgun home he or his kid fears being caught with stolen government property and they wipe the serial. When a civilian handgun is altered it just about ALWAYS means it was stolen at some point.
3. Yes, illegal under federal law. But if you acquired the gun without criminal intent all that will happen is that it will be confiscated. Happened to a friend a few years ago.
4. If it were me with this gun, I would keep it and shoot it. I think the worst that could happen is that if law enforcement became aware of it somehow it would be confiscated.
2. A military gun is far more likely to have the serial removed in my experience. Often when a GI brings a handgun home he or his kid fears being caught with stolen government property and they wipe the serial. When a civilian handgun is altered it just about ALWAYS means it was stolen at some point.
3. Yes, illegal under federal law. But if you acquired the gun without criminal intent all that will happen is that it will be confiscated. Happened to a friend a few years ago.
4. If it were me with this gun, I would keep it and shoot it. I think the worst that could happen is that if law enforcement became aware of it somehow it would be confiscated.
Darkenfast
Member
Weren't these the standard issue for female Army MP's for some years? I seem to remember seeing a few at Fort Meade back in the late 70's.
The entire gun was stolen not just the part with the serial number.
Car thieves would love it if they could just remove the serial number on the dash and then it was legal to sell off all the parts.
Art Doc
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Zipdog- Be realistic. This is likely not stolen and if it is there is no way to return to owner. Salvaging parts is the only way to retrieve any of the money spent on it.
Like I said, I would keep it to myself.
Like I said, I would keep it to myself.
BUFF
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
If the original serial number was ground off and the frame refinished, a police crime lab would be able to raise the original number through one of several processes. Think a state police crime lab, not a suburban P.D., which usually struggles with anything more complex than finding a fingerprint.
There is no way to establish the origin of this gun without the original number.
The current owner bought it in a licensed gun shop after an NCIC check on the number currently there, and my guess is unless he shoots somebody with it, and the investigating officer is a S&W fan who recognized the current number isn't factory, this just isn't going to happen.
I think this is a non-issue in the real world.
There is no way to establish the origin of this gun without the original number.
The current owner bought it in a licensed gun shop after an NCIC check on the number currently there, and my guess is unless he shoots somebody with it, and the investigating officer is a S&W fan who recognized the current number isn't factory, this just isn't going to happen.
I think this is a non-issue in the real world.
grcoffman104
Member
I concur a sales recept with that s/n would close the books,
Shows that owner made a legit purchase from a licensed dealer. Owner showed due dillagence by using reputable business. THEIR job to vet merchandise prior to offering to public.
From the desk of Cpl. Coffman (Retired)
1) What part of "receiving stolen property" don't you all understand?
If you know that the serial number was altered and keep it and you get caught, your in deep. Go back to the LGS and demand your money back.
One call to Roy Jinks by law enforcement would confirm that number is not legit.
2) Look at the letter from the BATFE posted by Mr. Williams.
I'm surprised at some of the LEO responses to the OP. You get caught in possession of a gun with an altered sn, suddenly it's on you to prove you didn't know it was stolen.
If you know that the serial number was altered and keep it and you get caught, your in deep. Go back to the LGS and demand your money back.
One call to Roy Jinks by law enforcement would confirm that number is not legit.
2) Look at the letter from the BATFE posted by Mr. Williams.
I'm surprised at some of the LEO responses to the OP. You get caught in possession of a gun with an altered sn, suddenly it's on you to prove you didn't know it was stolen.
I vote with SP and some of the others on this issue. I would just keep
it and shoot it. You bought it legally at an FFL and did absolutely
nothing wrong.
it and shoot it. You bought it legally at an FFL and did absolutely
nothing wrong.
Art Doc
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Officer Club Gun Fan- What part of "criminal intent" do YOU not understand? Is every pawnbroker arrested who buys stolen property that walks into the shop?
Also, there is no proof the gun is stolen. Like I said, a military gun with a wiped serial usually isn't stolen, it's paranoia over having government property. A RSP charge wouldn't last 2 seconds on a prosecutor's desk.
As for having a gun with an altered serial, the gun is contraband and would be confiscated and TECHNICALLY it is a crime to possess. But once again we come back to that criminal intent bugaboo. The gun was not acquired with any knowledge that there was a problem with it. Nobody would pursue charges against the current owner. The gun would be bagged and that would be the end of it.
We're spending far more time on this than the issue warrants.
Also, there is no proof the gun is stolen. Like I said, a military gun with a wiped serial usually isn't stolen, it's paranoia over having government property. A RSP charge wouldn't last 2 seconds on a prosecutor's desk.
As for having a gun with an altered serial, the gun is contraband and would be confiscated and TECHNICALLY it is a crime to possess. But once again we come back to that criminal intent bugaboo. The gun was not acquired with any knowledge that there was a problem with it. Nobody would pursue charges against the current owner. The gun would be bagged and that would be the end of it.
We're spending far more time on this than the issue warrants.
jsfricks
Member
kwill1911
Member
Where does it say "criminal intent" in the ATF letter? What it does say is it is "unlawful to possess...." Reading is fundamental.
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Just a reminder that extramarital sex is illegal in Virginia.
None of the good folks who keep repeating that the gun is illegal are wrong. But the question here is how that translates into real life. The ATF letter is meaningless for that, since it's just a boilerplate recitation of the law; of course they're not going to explain publicly how and what they're actually interested in prosecuting or even just pursuing.
This case isn't about legal absolutism, but comes down to what the current owner is comfortable with. In no conceivable scenario does he risk more than having to give up the gun. Anything further would require a prosecutor to prove that he knew the serial number was not legit, an impossibility in the face of documentation that a professional gun shop had properly cleared it.
Just don't keep a print-out of this thread with the gun
.
None of the good folks who keep repeating that the gun is illegal are wrong. But the question here is how that translates into real life. The ATF letter is meaningless for that, since it's just a boilerplate recitation of the law; of course they're not going to explain publicly how and what they're actually interested in prosecuting or even just pursuing.
This case isn't about legal absolutism, but comes down to what the current owner is comfortable with. In no conceivable scenario does he risk more than having to give up the gun. Anything further would require a prosecutor to prove that he knew the serial number was not legit, an impossibility in the face of documentation that a professional gun shop had properly cleared it.
Just don't keep a print-out of this thread with the gun
.My guess is if you were caught with it there is a good chance of being arrested. It would then be up to you to prove you bought it legally. I think I would made copies of all paperwork so not to lose any of it.
You could probably get out of it but who needs that headache. You might even have to hire a attorney.
You could probably get out of it but who needs that headache. You might even have to hire a attorney.
