Curious Mod 10-5

If the original serial number was ground off and the frame refinished, a police crime lab would be able to raise the original number through one of several processes. Think a state police crime lab, not a suburban P.D., which usually struggles with anything more complex than finding a fingerprint.

There is no way to establish the origin of this gun without the original number.

The current owner bought it in a licensed gun shop after an NCIC check on the number currently there, and my guess is unless he shoots somebody with it, and the investigating officer is a S&W fan who recognized the current number isn't factory, this just isn't going to happen.

I think this is a non-issue in the real world.
 
BUFF said:
If the original serial number was ground off and the frame refinished, a police crime lab would be able to raise the original number through one of several processes. Think a state police crime lab, not a suburban P.D., which usually struggles with anything more complex than finding a fingerprint.

There is no way to establish the origin of this gun without the original number.

The current owner bought it in a licensed gun shop after an NCIC check on the number currently there, and my guess is unless he shoots somebody with it, and the investigating officer is a S&W fan who recognized the current number isn't factory, this just isn't going to happen.

I think this is a non-issue in the real world.
Click to expand...
I concur a sales recept with that s/n would close the books,
Shows that owner made a legit purchase from a licensed dealer. Owner showed due dillagence by using reputable business. THEIR job to vet merchandise prior to offering to public.

From the desk of Cpl. Coffman (Retired)
 
1) What part of "receiving stolen property" don't you all understand?
If you know that the serial number was altered and keep it and you get caught, your in deep. Go back to the LGS and demand your money back.
One call to Roy Jinks by law enforcement would confirm that number is not legit.
2) Look at the letter from the BATFE posted by Mr. Williams.
I'm surprised at some of the LEO responses to the OP. You get caught in possession of a gun with an altered sn, suddenly it's on you to prove you didn't know it was stolen.
 
Officer Club Gun Fan- What part of "criminal intent" do YOU not understand? Is every pawnbroker arrested who buys stolen property that walks into the shop?

Also, there is no proof the gun is stolen. Like I said, a military gun with a wiped serial usually isn't stolen, it's paranoia over having government property. A RSP charge wouldn't last 2 seconds on a prosecutor's desk.

As for having a gun with an altered serial, the gun is contraband and would be confiscated and TECHNICALLY it is a crime to possess. But once again we come back to that criminal intent bugaboo. The gun was not acquired with any knowledge that there was a problem with it. Nobody would pursue charges against the current owner. The gun would be bagged and that would be the end of it.

We're spending far more time on this than the issue warrants.
 
Where does it say "criminal intent" in the ATF letter? What it does say is it is "unlawful to possess...." Reading is fundamental.
 
Just a reminder that extramarital sex is illegal in Virginia.

None of the good folks who keep repeating that the gun is illegal are wrong. But the question here is how that translates into real life. The ATF letter is meaningless for that, since it's just a boilerplate recitation of the law; of course they're not going to explain publicly how and what they're actually interested in prosecuting or even just pursuing.

This case isn't about legal absolutism, but comes down to what the current owner is comfortable with. In no conceivable scenario does he risk more than having to give up the gun. Anything further would require a prosecutor to prove that he knew the serial number was not legit, an impossibility in the face of documentation that a professional gun shop had properly cleared it.

Just don't keep a print-out of this thread with the gun ;).
 
My guess is if you were caught with it there is a good chance of being arrested. It would then be up to you to prove you bought it legally. I think I would made copies of all paperwork so not to lose any of it.

You could probably get out of it but who needs that headache. You might even have to hire a attorney.
 
"My guess is if you were caught with it there is a good chance of being arrested."

My guess is that you are guessing incorrectly.

No federal prosecutor would waste more than 5 seconds even thinking about charging the owner if all they had was a gun with no serial. Hell, they don't bother charging felons who try to buy guns. No resources to spend on such nickel and dime cases.
 
When was the last time any of you were "checked" for serial number authenticity of your firearms?

I deal with the BATFE way more than Joe Average and I've never been asked a thing about my personal firearms. In fact, I've never seen them take any interest in a personally owned gun unless the owner was a known prohibited person they were after for other crimes too.

Everyone always talks about "if you get caught with that" like there is a serial number police out on patrol at all the shooting ranges and gravel pits. Realistically the danger of being caught in this type case is so slim as to be nil and if you were for some reason, it isn't likely to be a one way trip to the chair for you.
 
SaxonPig said:
"My guess is if you were caught with it there is a good chance of being arrested."

My guess is that you are guessing incorrectly.

No federal prosecutor would waste more than 5 seconds even thinking about charging the owner if all they had was a gun with no serial. Hell, they don't bother charging felons who try to buy guns. No resources to spend on such nickel and dime cases.
Click to expand...

Don't bet on it. State law covers it also. It might depend on how the state words it in their law.

Here is Florida's version.

790.27 Alteration or removal of firearm serial number or possession, sale, or delivery of firearm with serial number altered or removed prohibited; penalties.—

(1)(a) It is unlawful for any person to knowingly alter or remove the manufacturer's or importer's serial number from a firearm with intent to disguise the true identity thereof.

(b) Any person violating paragraph (a) is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.


(2)(a) It is unlawful for any person to knowingly sell, deliver, or possess any firearm on which the manufacturer's or importer's serial number has been unlawfully altered or removed.

(b) Any person violating paragraph (a) is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

(3) This section shall not apply to antique firearms.

History.—s. 2, ch. 79-58; s. 179, ch. 91-224.
 
What do we really have here?

We have a gun with a serial number which was legally purchased from a properly licensed gun shop which jumped through all the hoops to process the sale and transfer the gun to the current owner.

And we have a bunch of self-appointed internet "experts" (okay, me included), who think they know that that is not the original serial number.

Is there even a theoretical possibility to "get caught" with the gun? No, because there is no evidence that this is an illegal gun, just supposition. All available hard evidence (the dealer's documentation) says it is not. There is not even a shred of actual evidence that would justify a police officer confiscating the gun, let alone charging anyone. Anyone ever heard of probable cause? This gun does not present sufficient probable cause to any police officer by itself. To establish that it had a different serial which was removed, you'd need a crime lab.

Contrary to what some here seem to believe, the owner doesn't have to prove anything. This gun isn't contraband unless someone takes the time to try to prove it is contraband, before it can be confiscated. So forget about the crime lab.

This is not just a case nobody would pursue, this isn't a case. If you want law enforcement to take a serious interest in the serial number, use the gun to murder someone.
 
Like I said, a military gun with a wiped serial usually isn't stolen, it's paranoia over having government property.
Click to expand...

No, it is paranoia over having STOLEN government property.
"Grandpa "brought home" his Army Gun. I wonder why it hasn't got any markings."

I doubt anybody ever bought a gun from the DCM and filed the serial number off.
 
Amazing how many people don't know right from wrong. It's justified because of bla, bla, bla. Sounds just like the restroom lawyers at work.
 
First if your in possession of a gun with an altered serial number you are in violation and can or will be charged with that (see (2)(a) above.

Second the gun will be impounded as it has a altered serial number. When they acid test the gun and bring up the original serial number, and it happens to be stolen, now your in possession of stolen property which is another charge.

You can make up all the BS excuses that it's ok but it's not. There are thousands upon thousands of stolen guns out there.

Now I wouldn't say in this case the OP would be charged as he has documents showing he bought the gun from a dealer, and that would probably get him off the hook.

The dealer might get charged with dealing in stolen property if it was a stolen gun, but that remains up in the air depending on what he did.

If I was the OP I would either turn it in, or go back to the dealer and ask for a refund, and let him deal with it. That could also be criminal as you are now dealing in stolen property, if that happened to be the case. Getting caught with an altered gun in not something you want to do.

Those of you who think it's OK because you won't ever get checked probably didn't think this though too well.
 
pigbike said:
First if your in possession of a gun with an altered serial number you are in violation and can or will be charged with that (see (2)(a) above.

Second the gun will be impounded as it has a altered serial number. When they acid test the gun and bring up the original serial number, and it happens to be stolen, now your in possession of stolen property which is another charge.

You can make up all the BS excuses that it's ok but it's not. There are thousands upon thousands of stolen guns out there.

Now I wouldn't say in this case the OP would be charged as he has documents showing he bought the gun from a dealer, and that would probably get him off the hook.

The dealer might get charged with dealing in stolen property if it was a stolen gun, but that remains up in the air depending on what he did.

If I was the OP I would either turn it in, or go back to the dealer and ask for a refund, and let him deal with it. That could also be criminal as you are now dealing in stolen property, if that happened to be the case. Getting caught with an altered gun in not something you want to do.

Those of you who think it's OK because you won't ever get checked probably didn't think this though too well.
Click to expand...

I agree with you, but, I'll bet someone will come along and prove both of us wrong. I'd like to be sitting in the waiting room at BATFE and listen to the conversation between "I swear it's not stolen, my dealer sold it to me with all the proper paperwork" and a knowledgeable agent. Of course possession of a stolen, or altered firearm is no big deal. It happens everyday. What happen when BATFE calls Smith & Wesson with a serial number check and they are told it's not a legitimate serial number? Suddenly, your guilty until you can prove your innocent.
 
I agree that the present 'serial number' is going to be just fine unless someone uses this handgun while committing a felony and then is caught. As a related to being serial numbered (licensed), .......I was a licensed and fully qualified pilot for 35 years. I flew my airplanes in Alaska as well as planes belonging to others. I flew my airplanes in the lower 48 as well as planes belonging to others. I flew other peoples airplanes through Canada on the way between Alaska and the lower 48. I flew my airplanes in Mexico. My point is that in all that time of flying in and out of controlled airports, not once did anyone ever approach me and ask to see my FAA license. IMHO, obeying the strict black and white of the law while virtuous and desirable is highly overrated. .......... :-)
 
Darkenfast said:
Weren't these the standard issue for female Army MP's for some years? I seem to remember seeing a few at Fort Meade back in the late 70's.
Click to expand...

Female MP's and dog handlers, because you needed one hand to control the dog and the revolver was supposedly easier to manipulate with one hand. We had them in Aviation. I saw an MI unit with them. I suppose some other type units had them as well.

By the time the M9 came on line, the Army was running pretty short of M1911's. Something like 1/3rd of the sidearms issued were a revolver of some sort.
 
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