Curious Mod 10-5

[Prophammer]

I picked up a Mod 10-5 a few months ago as a project. It was rusted, and very well worn pretty much everywhere that was exposed to air. My curiousity is with the US marked back strap and rough hand stamp serial number on the butt. It's a round butt tapered barrel model.
My question is how old? Could it be one of the USAF contract guns?

 

[Prophammer]

Another pic with US mark

 

[Prophammer]

Serial number stamp

 

[alwslate]

A curosity for sure. Is the number on the butt the same number
stamped on the frame under the crane? My first impression is that it
looks like it might have been altered from SB to RB.

 

[lebomm]

Clearly an altered serial no. That piece is probably a felony to possess.
Hope I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

Larry

 

[Ross3914]

I carried the exact gun in the Army as a helicopter pilot. I don't recall anything about the markings on any of the ones I was issued, so I'm of no help there.

We had both the S&W Model 10 or Ruger Service-Six in every arms room it seemed. You pretty much got to choose if you wanted a Ruger or S&W.

The Rugers were marked "Service-Six" but had round butt's like a Speed-Six. They also had lanyard loops, but the Model 10's did not. The S&W's were exactly like what you have in the pic.

 

[grcoffman104]

Clearly an altered serial no. That piece is probably a felony to possess.
Hope I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

Larry

I'd be reluctant to try to file a case on this. Whole number altered or filed off, sure. Proving beond a shadow of doubt that this wasnt some craftsman placing his mark on a weapon he was working on and was off center would be problematic.

From the desk of Cpl. Coffman (Retired)

 

[gkitch]

If there is an unaltered serial number in the crane you are good.

 

[Absalom]

If there is an unaltered serial number in the crane you are good.

Not really, since the Model 10-5 has no serial number in the yoke/crane area.

Whatever that number on the butt is, it's NOT the original serial, which had a C or D prefix. Someone could have copied an assembly number from the crane (I have one with a five-digit one) assuming that was the serial.

Either way, it's weird. And I don't think by that time the additional serial number stampings on barrel, cylinder, etc. were still practiced, so probably no way to check.

 

[reddog81]

I'd be reluctant to try to file a case on this. Whole number altered or filed off, sure. Proving beond a shadow of doubt that this wasnt some craftsman placing his mark on a weapon he was working on and was off center would be problematic.

From the desk of Cpl. Coffman (Retired)

I'd be reluctant to assume that the BATFE would agree with that logic...

 

[gmborkovic]

Just between you and me, put that gun in the shop in the bottom of a bucket for now. Do not bring it out and show it until the mystery gets resolved. These spurious Sns can open up a hornets nest. I knew one gunsmith that cut the bottom of the frame off and used it as a fitting jig.

 

[linde]

Not really, since the Model 10-5 has no serial number in the yoke/crane area . . . And I don't think by that time the additional serial number stampings on barrel, cylinder, etc. were still practiced, so probably no way to check.

True . . . the serial numbers on the barrel and cylinder were discontinued circa 1957 . . . but the s/n on the underside of the extractor was retained much longer.

Since it's not "on the frame" as required by ATF regs, any s/n on the extractor won't serve as the official number but it will likely tell you what the original number was/is.

Russ

 

[grcoffman104]

I'd be reluctant to assume that the BATFE would agree with that logic...

Allways let the feds take my "extra" cases. My case load was too high. [emoji1]

From the desk of Cpl. Coffman (Retired)

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Let's start at the beginning.....

I picked up a Mod 10-5 a few months ago as a project

What does "picked up" mean?

It's an interesting question. if you stop by my house and I hand you one of my old beater guns that I use as decoration that's one kind of pick up but if you stop by the LGS or a pawn shop and buy it, even CHEAP CHEAP, that's another kind of pick up, or at a gun show - FFL or private sale?

If you bought that gun from a federally licensed firearms dealer and there is a paper record of the same/4473 with SN I would argue that you did what the law requires, and if the gun has an altered serial number it's neither your fault nor your problem. That's an "iffy" argument but I think it would prevail with the gendarmerie and most prosecutors. But if you acquired that gun from a non-dealer, yeah, if the SN is altered it's definitely on you.

 

[Prophammer]

Thanks for the replies. I purchased this at a local, very reputable shop. 4473, NICS check and all. It was call traced through local PD when the shop brought it in to verify it at least currently isn't on any "hot" list.
There are no assembly numbers on any other part, and the butt looks to be original, not cut down. As well comparing it measurement wise to my other round butt, doesn't look like it was "altered", as in had the original SerNo milled off, or filed for that matter, all the profiles are the same. No other marks besides the model number under the crane(which matches factory mark), and the US on back strap.
Cash wise I've very little into it. I bought it as a parts donor/project piece to practice gunsmithing and refinishing on. Shame to have to cut it up, it's a wonderfully smooth and very accurate shooter.

Edit... I found that number stamped inside the side plate, don't know why I hadn't looked there before. So it looks like someone copied the assembly number?

 

[linde]

. . .
Edit... I found that number stamped inside the side plate, don't know why I hadn't looked there before. So it looks like someone copied the assembly number?

Is there a number on the back side of the extractor?

Russ

 

[Prophammer]

No numbers on either the cylinder or crane. I'm guessing replacements sometime in the past...

 

[Absalom]

Thanks for the replies. I purchased this at a local, very reputable shop. 4473, NICS check and all. It was call traced through local PD when the shop brought it in to verify it at least currently isn't on any "hot" list.

Of course they would have run the gun with the assembly number as the serial, so any result is meaningless if the gun was reported stolen with its original serial number. But if that original number is nowhere to be found anymore (did you check the back of the extractor star?), that connection is severed forever anyways.

......... and the butt looks to be original, not cut down. As well comparing it measurement wise to my other round butt, doesn't look like it was "altered", as in had the original SerNo milled off, or filed for that matter, all the profiles are the same......

I wondered about that, too. Someone went through a lot of trouble removing a serial number and getting the butt flat to look that untouched and pristine, if that's what happened.

 

[Jim Watson]

Yes, neatly "scrubbed." And all that work thrown away with a crooked hand stamped number, preceded by something that had just as well be the Sanskrit inventory mark.

 

[Prophammer]

Definitly went through a lot of trouble to clean it up, polish it, and make it look pretty, only to re-stamp it so roughly. My theory is it was reworked at some point by a pro, or a pretty good amateur, the re-numbered. But who knows?

 

[Muss Muggins]

That SN in no way resembles a factory stamped SN from the era in which that pistol was manufactured. Whether or not it's the correct SN is not for me to say . . .

 

[kwill1911]

That gun started as an Army contract Model 10 and there aren't many around. But that number on the butt would be a showstopper for me. As a practical matter it might never be an issue but I would not want to risk a felony conviction on a $250 revolver. There is not much ambiguity about the BATF's position.

 

[Absalom]

Prophammer:

Just to clarify something, you said in your original post it was rusty and worn everywhere, which is not the gun in your photos, so did you already refinish it?

Also, in reference to your question about the U.S. stamp on the backstrap, the Air Force apparently did receive some Model 10's so marked. See the link to the older thread I've pasted below:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/360406-model-10-us-marked.html

 

[linde]

Is there a number on the back side of the extractor?

No numbers on either the cylinder or crane. I'm guessing replacements sometime in the past...

But what about the back side of the extractor?

Here is a Model 10-5 s/n D571184 that shipped in February 1973. Note there is no s/n on the barrel flat or rear face of cylinder but . . . lo and behold . . . there it is on the rear face of the extractor star (I apologize the s/n stamping on this example is not as legible as most)

IF I were wanting to know more about this revolver's history I would look there and start my research with the real serial number.

Russ

 

[Prophammer]

Prophammer:

Just to clarify something, you said in your original post it was rusty and worn everywhere, which is not the gun in your photos, so did you already refinish it?

Also, in reference to your question about the U.S. stamp on the backstrap, the Air Force apparently did receive some Model 10's so marked. See the link to the older thread I've pasted below:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/360406-model-10-us-marked.html

Yes I had already re-finished, not to mension several hours of fitting and getting things properly timed. A lot of work to end up having it destroyed. The way things are shaping up I'll likely strip it to the frame and either destroy and forget or turn it in. Like I said I paid almost nothing for it, no real loss financially.

 

[Prophammer]

But what about the back side of the extractor?

Here is a Model 10-5 s/n D571184 that shipped in February 1973. Note there is no s/n on the barrel flat or rear face of cylinder but . . . lo and behold . . . there it is on the rear face of the extractor star (I apologize the s/n stamping on this example is not as legible as most)

IF I were wanting to know more about this revolver's history I would look there and start my research with the real serial number.



Russ

Thanks for the pics, there is no number on the rear face of the extractor either. It's clean.

 

[Art Doc]

1. It's amazing to me how many S&Ws with altered or removed serials turn up being discussed on thise forum. Makes me wonder how many such guns are out there?

2. A military gun is far more likely to have the serial removed in my experience. Often when a GI brings a handgun home he or his kid fears being caught with stolen government property and they wipe the serial. When a civilian handgun is altered it just about ALWAYS means it was stolen at some point.

3. Yes, illegal under federal law. But if you acquired the gun without criminal intent all that will happen is that it will be confiscated. Happened to a friend a few years ago.

4. If it were me with this gun, I would keep it and shoot it. I think the worst that could happen is that if law enforcement became aware of it somehow it would be confiscated.

 

[Darkenfast]

Weren't these the standard issue for female Army MP's for some years? I seem to remember seeing a few at Fort Meade back in the late 70's.

 

[Zipdog]

Yes I had already re-finished, not to mension several hours of fitting and getting things properly timed. A lot of work to end up having it destroyed. The way things are shaping up I'll likely strip it to the frame and either destroy and forget or turn it in. Like I said I paid almost nothing for it, no real loss financially.

The entire gun was stolen not just the part with the serial number.
Car thieves would love it if they could just remove the serial number on the dash and then it was legal to sell off all the parts.

 

[Art Doc]

Zipdog- Be realistic. This is likely not stolen and if it is there is no way to return to owner. Salvaging parts is the only way to retrieve any of the money spent on it.

Like I said, I would keep it to myself.