Cylinder Timing

[Viktor]

I have a 686-5 + with one cylinder that does not time properly. The cylinder locking lug does not engage fully in either single or double action when the hammer is fully cocked. All other cylinders engage completely before the hammer is fully cocked. How do you fix this? Can a local gunsmith do it easily? Is this a factory operation? Any info would be appreciated. Thanks, Viktor

 

[Viktor]

I have a 686-5 + with one cylinder that does not time properly. The cylinder locking lug does not engage fully in either single or double action when the hammer is fully cocked. All other cylinders engage completely before the hammer is fully cocked. How do you fix this? Can a local gunsmith do it easily? Is this a factory operation? Any info would be appreciated. Thanks, Viktor

 

[robertrwalsh]

Smiths time on the width of the hand, not the height of it. You may be able to peen the one ratchet down a little bit to make it wider. It may be easier to simply put in a wider hand, which isn't a difficult operation as long as it doesn't make it too wide for the others and cause binding. Replacing the extractor would be option #3, most expensive and most time consuming. Any decent gunsmith could do any of these. You could almost certainly replace the hand yourself, it's not hard to do. I'd start with that.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Doesn't installing a wider hand involve filing or sanding the hand window wider as well? I have one Smith that is sluggish in carry-up. I've been told by Brownells that I can install a wider hand, but I need to open up the window for width. My hand is snug (very minimal side slack) in the widow as it is. I don't mean to imply that it's tight and causing slow timing, just that there's no extra wiggle. I would like to fix it myself, but have been hesitant to because of not being sure about opening the window. If I do open the window, will I need to on the firing pin side, or the outside?

 

[S&W revolverman]

Originally posted by Gun 4 Fun:
Doesn't installing a wider hand involve filing or sanding the hand window wider as well? I have one Smith that is sluggish in carry-up. I've been told by Brownells that I can install a wider hand, but I need to open up the window for width. My hand is snug (very minimal side slack) in the widow as it is. I don't mean to imply that it's tight and causing slow timing, just that there's no extra wiggle. I would like to fix it myself, but have been hesitant to because of not being sure about opening the window. If I do open the window, will I need to on the firing pin side, or the outside?

Gun 4 Fun,
In armorer terminology, we use sideplate side and frame side to describe which side of the revolver we are talking about. In your case, opening the width of the hand window, you would file a little on the frame side of the window to open it up a bit. Go easy, and keep checking, as you can always file a little more off, but can't put metal back on if filed too much.

Hope this helps
chris

 

[bountyhunter]

Originally posted by Viktor:
I have a 686-5 + with one cylinder that does not time properly. The cylinder locking lug does not engage fully in either single or double action when the hammer is fully cocked. All other cylinders engage completely before the hammer is fully cocked. How do you fix this? Can a local gunsmith do it easily? Is this a factory operation? Any info would be appreciated. Thanks, Viktor

That is a carry up failure. If you have it only on one slot and all the others are good, you need to replace the extractor because one of the star ratchets is messed up. It MAY be possible to install a wider hand and then cut all the other ratchets (that are presently OK) down to match it. Depends how screwed up the bad ratchet is.

Check the cylinder slot for excessive peening or a ridge that might be making the cylinder stop hand up.

 

[bountyhunter]

Originally posted by Gun 4 Fun:
Doesn't installing a wider hand involve filing or sanding the hand window wider as well?

NEVER remove metal from the frame window edge. You "slenderize" the hand on the left hand (inner) edge until it is a perfect match to the loosest fitting ratchet. Then, you balance the other (tighter) ratchets to the hand by removing just enough from each ratchet to get a perfect fit to the new wider hand.

 

[bountyhunter]

Originally posted by S&W revolverman:

Originally posted by Gun 4 Fun:
Doesn't installing a wider hand involve filing or sanding the hand window wider as well? I have one Smith that is sluggish in carry-up. I've been told by Brownells that I can install a wider hand, but I need to open up the window for width. My hand is snug (very minimal side slack) in the widow as it is. I don't mean to imply that it's tight and causing slow timing, just that there's no extra wiggle. I would like to fix it myself, but have been hesitant to because of not being sure about opening the window. If I do open the window, will I need to on the firing pin side, or the outside?

Gun 4 Fun,
In armorer terminology, we use sideplate side and frame side to describe which side of the revolver we are talking about. In your case, opening the width of the hand window, you would file a little on the frame side of the window to open it up a bit. Go easy, and keep checking, as you can always file a little more off, but can't put metal back on if filed too much.

Hope this helps
chris

I recommend removing metal from the left side of the hand first since it is a $12 piece and the frame is irreplaceable. By the time a gun has worn enough to fail carry up, the right hand (sideplate) side of the slot has already worn wide.... which is why the carry up is failing. I have yet to have to cut a slot to fit a wider hand in, the frame is already too wide hence the need for the wider hand.

And as said above, if you ever do file it, only remove metal on the frame (inner) edge since the outer edge wears away on it's own during use.

 

[Joni_Lynn]

When the chamber in question IS locked up correctly is the chamber correctly lined up with the barrel?
I don't suppose there's any chance that the locking notch on the cylinder is off to one side just a little bit is there? If so then you'd need a new cylinder.
Otherwise the info already posted is great!
You guys are a wealth of knowledge!

 

[judge]

If the cylinder stop does not fully seat into the slot, it may not be a hand problem. Check the cylinder slot for burrs and/or dirt. Cylinder stops are fitted to the SMALLEST slot on the cylinder with a zero tolerance fit. If it drops into the slot fully by rotating the cylinder, then you have a hand problem or a "ratchet" problem.

 

[Wayne M]

Try just replacing the hand you now have with an oversized one before doing any filing. They often will just drop in and work. Don't get rid of the one you take out; someday you'll want to replace a hand in another revolver and the one which is too short thin whatever, now, may be just right in the future.

 

[Guest]

Originally posted by Viktor:
I have a 686-5 + with one cylinder that does not time properly. The cylinder locking lug does not engage fully in either single or double action when the hammer is fully cocked. All other cylinders engage completely before the hammer is fully cocked. How do you fix this? Can a local gunsmith do it easily? Is this a factory operation? Any info would be appreciated. Thanks, Viktor

This is a "Back to the Factory" if you want the price to be "right" as in 'No Charge'. Call the Service Department and they will send you a shipping label and even pay for the return shipping unless the gun has been abused or shows signed of having been "Tinkered with" when they get it back. This should not be the case.

Besides, whoever sold you the gun "Saw you coming" or didn't know what they were doing. There are more so called 'Gun Shops' out there than you can shake a stick at that are "staffed" by the Twentysomething kids that work cheap and since they've read at least three Gun Magazines they are now experts about everything related to firearms of all types!!!

 

[bountyhunter]

Originally posted by Wayne M:
Try just replacing the hand you now have with an oversized one before doing any filing. They often will just drop in and work. Don't get rid of the one you take out; someday you'll want to replace a hand in another revolver and the one which is too short thin whatever, now, may be just right in the future.

There is a potential problem: if you have one worn or poorly fitted ratchet and you drop in a wide hand with no fitting, it may carry up OK... and it will make all the other ratchet fits too tight. Hands are made from VERY hard steel and they have sharp edges, so in relatively short time, that hand will cut the frame window slot because of the tight fit sliding by the ratchet, and that's the last thing you want. If you do "drop in" a wide hand, I would carefully check fit on all the positions.

 

[Wayne M]

When you run into that situation you fit it! If you don't have experience dealing with this I'd follow the "send it back to the factory" route.

 

[n4zov]

This is a "Back to the Factory" if you want the price to be "right" as in 'No Charge'.

+1 They have the parts and experience to take care of the problem. At the same time, they can take care of any other issues.

 

[Alk8944]

Originally posted by bountyhunter:

Originally posted by Wayne M:
Try just replacing the hand you now have with an oversized one before doing any filing. They often will just drop in and work. Don't get rid of the one you take out; someday you'll want to replace a hand in another revolver and the one which is too short thin whatever, now, may be just right in the future.

There is a potential problem: if you have one worn or poorly fitted ratchet and you drop in a wide hand with no fitting, it may carry up OK... and it will make all the other ratchet fits too tight. Hands are made from VERY hard steel and they have sharp edges, so in relatively short time, that hand will cut the frame window slot because of the tight fit sliding by the ratchet, and that's the last thing you want. If you do "drop in" a wide hand, I would carefully check fit on all the positions.

bountyhunter,

You seem to be quite the expert!! Can you tell us how many years you have been smithing S&W revolvers? Number of posts doesn't count.

 

[bountyhunter]

Originally posted by Alk8944:

Originally posted by bountyhunter:

Originally posted by Wayne M:
Try just replacing the hand you now have with an oversized one before doing any filing. They often will just drop in and work. Don't get rid of the one you take out; someday you'll want to replace a hand in another revolver and the one which is too short thin whatever, now, may be just right in the future.

There is a potential problem: if you have one worn or poorly fitted ratchet and you drop in a wide hand with no fitting, it may carry up OK... and it will make all the other ratchet fits too tight. Hands are made from VERY hard steel and they have sharp edges, so in relatively short time, that hand will cut the frame window slot because of the tight fit sliding by the ratchet, and that's the last thing you want. If you do "drop in" a wide hand, I would carefully check fit on all the positions.

bountyhunter,

You seem to be quite the expert!! Can you tell us how many years you have been smithing S&W revolvers? Number of posts doesn't count.

About fifteen years, but only for myself and league members. I live in kalifornia so I would never try to make a living for any profession that is gun related. The gunsmithing I learned is because competent smiths are so rare here the lead times are months to get anything done and the prices are ridiculous.

 

[bountyhunter]

Originally posted by Wayne M:
If you don't have experience dealing with this I'd follow the "send it back to the factory" route.

I agree with that.

 

[Nightowl]

I go with the "send it back to the factory" advice. Fitting a hand can be very tedious, even if you have the knowledge, experience, and the parts and tools needed. (Did I say that I hate fitting ratchets to a new hand!) The factory can check all the things that need to be checked, fixed what needs to be fixed, and fit a new extractor as as last resort.

 

[Alk8944]

Originally posted by bountyhunter:

Originally posted by Alk8944:

Originally posted by bountyhunter:

Originally posted by Wayne M:
Try just replacing the hand you now have with an oversized one before doing any filing. They often will just drop in and work. Don't get rid of the one you take out; someday you'll want to replace a hand in another revolver and the one which is too short thin whatever, now, may be just right in the future.

There is a potential problem: if you have one worn or poorly fitted ratchet and you drop in a wide hand with no fitting, it may carry up OK... and it will make all the other ratchet fits too tight. Hands are made from VERY hard steel and they have sharp edges, so in relatively short time, that hand will cut the frame window slot because of the tight fit sliding by the ratchet, and that's the last thing you want. If you do "drop in" a wide hand, I would carefully check fit on all the positions.

bountyhunter,

You seem to be quite the expert!! Can you tell us how many years you have been smithing S&W revolvers? Number of posts doesn't count.

About fifteen years, but only for myself and league members. I live in kalifornia so I would never try to make a living for any profession that is gun related. The gunsmithing I learned is because competent smiths are so rare here the lead times are months to get anything done and the prices are ridiculous.

I would guess then that you know what a hand window file is for? An oversize hand is only .002" at best thicker than a standard one. If you were to stone the oversize hand until it fit rather than widen the hand window using the hand window file you would end up with the "oversize" hand being the same thickness as the original standard hand. What would be the point????????????

I really hate to say this in such a blunt fashion, but you don't know what you are talking about, which is one of my major pet peeves with forum posters. I have been doing this for nearly 50 years, am a school trained and practical gunsmith, police armorer, and as mentioned in other posts, have been through the S&W armorers school. Widening the hand slot in the frame when necessary is exactly the way it is done at the factory.