Do you REALLY believe in the 2nd Amendment?

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Yes, folks that go into a Rep's office in the Texas capitol and scream "TYRANT!" and create such discord that the Capitol Troopers have to be called, yes, they are morons. Idiots, stooges and imbeciles. I chose my words correctly.

No one who supports the 2nd A can support chokeholes like these hammerheads or their pathetic, disgusting, blowhard behavior.

You mean like the founding fathers did?

See, the big problem with the OC argument is that is really is NO Constititional grounds for it, none. It doesn't exist. The state of Texas granted authority for it to occur, but no where, NO WHERE, does it read in the Constitution that you have the right to Open Carry. Period. Finding the right to OC in the 2ndA is no different that the Supreme Court finding the right to abortion in the 14thA. It doesn't exist.

Truth is, intelligent people who clearly understand federalism, the 2ndA and 'republicanism' just don't relish the idea of wannabe "cowboys" endangering their wives, kids or friends because they insist on being a ridiculous target so they can crow about non-existent rights that don't appear in our founding documents.

So, with the above statements, what exactly do you think "keep and bear arms" means? Only concealed? Seems unlikely that was a topic of concern with the handguns of the day, but I'm interested to hear your position . . .
 
I was hoping that I wouldn't have to be the one to prove that reactionary intolerance, mischaraterization and demonizing had become a tool of the firearms community. Luckily, I didn't. Perusing the above responses clearly articulates that it has.

Before I sign off, I would like to correct some incorrect statements about my intent or my statements:

Fact: Open Carry is not a constitituional right, it appears nowhere in the 2ndA, it is an interpretation of the courts. You can cheer if a court interprets something your way, complain when it doesn't. But the fact is OC is NOT spelled out in the Constitition and you don't have a "right" to do it, you're allowed to do it by state law or court inpretation - that is not the same thing. If you don't understand the distinction, then you don't understand how laws work in the US.

Fact: Carrying openly displays your weapon publicly, and if any goblin is looking for trouble, the guy carrying openly will be seen first. Period. Dress it up with all the rhetoric you want, but common sense doesn't tip their hand if they feel they need a weapon for protection in first place.

Fact: No one said "blood would run down the streets", what I said was it was a really bad idea tactically and politically and the potential to be targeted is much higher if you're exposing your means of self defense.

Fact: Never claimed to have 'an abundance of intelligence', I said many intelligent people disagree about the issue of OC and can articulate real world reasons why it's a bad idea.

Fact: I said that some supporters of OC were becoming radicalized, intolerant of anyone disagreeing and would resort to the tactics of the counterculture when someone did disagreed....

smokingdog: "You sir should really not be carrying a badge and by your own standards, I ask the mods to determine your identity and expose your rants to your superiors. THAT is the world you advocate."

....that certainly doesn't sound like 'big tent', discussion oriented rhetoric. And I'm curious how an opinion on a forum regarding OC suddenly disqualifies me in my job or requires my chain of command to be notified that I...what?...disagree with you????

Fact: I am not stating that OC is the equivalent of carrying a nuclear backpack. What I said was that there are limits to types of weapons that can be owned and how they can be carried. This was stated only as an illustration so as to point out that there ARE reasonable limits that should be in place, and every right in the Bill of Rights has, at some point a natural limit. Carrying an M4 or Glock 21 openly to go to McDonalds for a Big Mac or Cinemark to see a movie, in my opinion, should be a natural limit. Carrying CCW is not a limit, carry away, the more the merrier. Openly? Un-needed attention in every possible way.

Fact: For 239 years this nation has looked upon laws as a whole, in balance and in compromise. The people vote, the legislature writes, the courts decide. And at times, things have to be tweaked, changed or repealed. The balance that exists here is between what OC supporters believe is their 'right to openly carry' versus the rest of the population's right to feel safe and secure in their community. The polls show Texans are in favor, by a huuuuuuuge margin, of CCW. So am I, great concept. The polls are a lot tighter about OC.

Instead of asking me "what right of yours is being infringed by my openly carrying" it could be rephrased as "what right of yours is being infringed by my not having weapons hanging on strangers arms or waists openly while I dine in peace with my wife?" Why do you think that your so called 'right' (which doesn't appear in the 2ndA) is more important or relevant that other's 'right' to not worry that someone sitting beside their family members could be the lightening rod that gets them hurt in an ugly confrontation?

The very foundation of the question "Do you REALLY believe in the 2nd Amendment?" suggests that if you don't agree with OC, then you don't. False presumption, loaded question. I could ask the same question, "Do you REALLY believe in the 2nd Amendment?" then answer "Then why do you carry rifles and pistols around folks in public when you know it upsets them? You're hurting our cause." See, it cuts both ways.

Obviously, no one here is going to convince anyone else of their point of view. I seriously don't mean now, or meant earlier, any offense to anyone who disagrees (except the goons of Open Carry Texas, who I couldn't give a flip about being raging red hot torqued off at me - they've demonstrated time and again they believe in the worst type of bullying and intimidation to get their way, they are the worst evangelicals for the 2ndA in the memory of my lifetime. I hope folks of that stripe do get mad at me, it means I'm most likely doing something right).

In sum, I'm agreeing to disagree, here. If you want to OC in Texas, go for it, the current legislature just allowed it. But if you're going to get molten hot over some guy on a forum that says "It ain't the best idea," what are you going to do if you get a live person that gets in your face over it? You wear openly, you open that door. Another reason to not do it.

Let's let tempers simmer down, it's a moot point. It's law. Reality and time will be the judge of it's prudence, not open warfare on a forum.

God bless ya' all, agree or disagree.
G'night.
 
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So, what do you think "keep and bear arms" means? Only concealed? Pretty sure that the founding fathers didn't consider concealed carry in drafting the second amendment. If you can't open carry, then how exactly do you "bear" an arm . . . ?

Still waiting for an answer to a fairly simple question . . .

I was hoping that I wouldn't have to be the one to prove that reactionary intolerance, mischaraterization and demonizing had become a tool of the firearms community. Luckily, I didn't. Perusing the above responses clearly articulates that it has.

Before I sign off, I would like to correct some incorrect statements about my intent or my statements:

Fact: Open Carry is not a constitituional right, it appears nowhere in the 2ndA, it is an interpretation of the courts. You can cheer if a court interprets something your way, complain when it doesn't. But the fact is OC is NOT spelled out in the Constitition and you don't have a "right" to do it, you're allowed to do it by state law or court inpretation - that is not the same thing. If you don't understand the distinction, then you don't understand how laws work in the US.

Fact: Carrying openly displays your weapon publicly, and if any goblin is looking for trouble, the guy carrying openly will be seen first. Period. Dress it up with all the rhetoric you want, but common sense doesn't tip their hand if they feel they need a weapon for protection in first place.

Fact: No one said "blood would run down the streets", what I said was it was a really bad idea tactically and politically and the potential to be targeted is much higher if you're exposing your means of self defense.

Fact: Never claimed to have 'an abundance of intelligence', I said many intelligent people disagree about the issue of OC and can articulate real world reasons why it's a bad idea.

Fact: I said that some supporters of OC were becoming radicalized, intolerant of anyone disagreeing and would resort to the tactics of the counterculture when someone did disagreed....

smokingdog: "You sir should really not be carrying a badge and by your own standards, I ask the mods to determine your identity and expose your rants to your superiors. THAT is the world you advocate."

....that certainly doesn't sound like 'big tent', discussion oriented rhetoric. And I'm curious how an opinion on a forum regarding OC suddenly disqualifies me in my job or requires my chain of command to be notified that I...what?...disagree with you????

Fact: I am not stating that OC is the equivalent of carrying a nuclear backpack. What I said was that there are limits to types of weapons that can be owned and how they can be carried. This was stated only as an illustration so as to point out that there ARE reasonable limits that should be in place, and every right in the Bill of Rights has, at some point a natural limit. Carrying an M4 or Glock 21 openly to go to McDonalds for a Big Mac or Cinemark to see a movie, in my opinion, should be a natural limit. Carrying CCW is not a limit, carry away, the more the merrier. Openly? Un-needed attention in every possible way.

Fact: For 239 years this nation has looked upon laws as a whole, in balance and in compromise. The people vote, the legislature writes, the courts decide. And at times, things have to be tweaked, changed or repealed. The balance that exists here is between what OC supporters believe is their 'right to openly carry' versus the rest of the population's right to feel safe and secure in their community. The polls show Texans are in favor, by a huuuuuuuge margin, of CCW. So am I, great concept. The polls are a lot tighter about OC.

Instead of asking me "what right of yours is being infringed by my openly carrying" it could be rephrased as "what right of yours is being infringed by my not having weapons hanging on strangers arms or waists openly while I dine in peace with my wife?" Why do you think that your so called 'right' (which doesn't appear in the 2ndA) is more important or relevant that other's 'right' to not worry that someone sitting beside their family members could be the lightening rod that gets them hurt in an ugly confrontation?

The very foundation of the question "Do you REALLY believe in the 2nd Amendment?" suggests that if you don't agree with OC, then you don't. False presumption, loaded question. I could ask the same question, "Do you REALLY believe in the 2nd Amendment?" then answer "Then why do you carry rifles and pistols around folks in public when you know it upsets them? You're hurting our cause." See, it cuts both ways.

Obviously, no one here is going to convince anyone else of their point of view. I seriously mean now, or meant earlier, any offense to anyone who disagrees (except the goons of Open Carry Texas, who I couldn't give a flip about being raging red hot torqued off at me - they've demonstrated time and again they believe in the worst type of bullying and intimidation to get their way, they are the worst evangelicals for the 2ndA in the memory of my lifetime. I hope folks of that stripe do get mad at me, it means I'm most likely doing something right).

In sum, I'm agreeing to disagree, here. If you want to OC in Texas, go for it, the current legislature just allowed it. But if you're going to get molten hot over some guy on a forum that says "It ain't the best idea," what are you going to do if you get a live person that gets in your face over it? You wear openly, you open that door. Another reason to not do it.

Let's let tempers simmer down, it's a moot point. It's law. Reality and time will be the judge of it's prudence, not open warfare on a forum.

God bless ya' all, agree or disagree.
G'night.
 
Oh, and I forgot to ask one question? Why would anyone get banned for expressing an opinion on this forum? I've seen some pretty heated topics, but never anyone banned from this site. Others? Oh, yeah. One in particular where the 'ban hammer' falls regularly, but here? News to me...
 
Oh, and I forgot to ask one question? Why would anyone get banned for expressing an opinion on this forum? I've seen some pretty heated topics, but never anyone banned from this site. Others? Oh, yeah. One in particular where the 'ban hammer' falls regularly, but here? News to me...

What does "keep and bear arms" mean in your opinion?
 
So, what do you think "keep and bear arms" means? Only concealed? Pretty sure that the founding fathers didn't consider concealed carry in drafting the second amendment. If you can't open carry, then how exactly do you "bear" an arm . . . ?

Still waiting for an answer to a fairly simple question . . .

If this was 1776, I'd say you're point is dead on. The evolution of this nation and technology requires interpretation. They didn't have the Internet either, but you can open up a whole can of worms discussing the rights of expression, free speech, communication, ownership and transfer of content...see what I mean? I'm a pretty strict constructionalist, but modern life has made over simplifying some interpretations of the Constitution problematic.

To further that point, it doesn't read 'concealed' or 'openly'. It just says 'bear arms'. So if State A says "That means concealed" and State B says "That means openly", how do you determine you're absolutely correct in picking the State that made the right choice?

What I kept waiting for (and no one caught it and brought it up) was the question, "It doesn't say CCW, either". Which is right. So, if it doesn't say either one, which is correct? I can argue that it doesn't allow OC because it doesn't specifically 'say' it (I really thought some poster would catch that by now), because it is true, it doesn't. We've had 20 years of CCW in Texas, no problems, so that is an interpretation of acceptance by by allowance. I can live with that.

We've never had OC in Texas, and it's irrelevant to me if it's worked in other states because those states are not Texas, they don't have the same demographical makeup, population centers, politics, crime, etc. Whoever said earlier that all the states are 'separate laboratories of legal experiments' was very correct. Texas is unique to itself.

I believe that interpreting OC, here in Texas, to not be allowed would have been correct and rational. Carrying openly in the late 18th Century is definitely not the same thing as carrying an AK-47 on your back in 2015 along the Riverwalk in downtown San Antonio on a crowded summer day with thousands of tourists in each others way, or along the sidewalk of Six Flags in Dallas in the same situation.

Strict interpretation with common sense evolution allowing for change. That's my response.
 
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So the Constitution says we can't bear arms unless the state allows it? How does voting work?

If this was 1776, I'd say you're point is dead on. The evolution of this nation and technology requires interpretation. They didn't have the Internet either, but you can open up a whole can of worms discussing the rights of expression, free speech, communication, ownership and transfer of content...see what I mean? I'm a pretty strict constructionalist, but modern life has made over simplifying some interpretations of the Constitution problematic.

To further that point, it doesn't read 'concealed' or 'openly'. It just says 'bear arms'. So if State A says "That means concealed" and State B says "That means openly", how do you determine you're absolutely correct in picking the State that made the right choice?

What I kept waiting for (and no one caught it and brought it up) was the question, "It doesn't say CCW, either". Which is right. So, if it doesn't say either one, which is correct? I can argue that it doesn't allow OC because it doesn't specifically 'say' it (I really thought some poster would catch that by now), because it is true, it doesn't. We've had 20 years of CCW in Texas, no problems, so that is an interpretation of acceptance by by allowance. I can live with that.

We've never had OC in Texas, and it's irrelevant to me if it's worked in other states because those states are not Texas, they don't have the same demographical makeup, population centers, politics, crime, etc. Whoever said earlier that all the states are 'separate laboratories of legal experiments' was very correct. Texas is unique to itself.

I believe that interpreting OC, here in Texas, to not be allowed would have been correct and rational. Carrying openly in the late 18th Century is definitely not the same thing as carrying an AK-47 on your back in 2015 along the Riverwalk in downtown San Antonio on a crowded summer day with thousands of tourists in each others way, or along the sidewalk of Six Flags in Dallas in the same situation.

Strict interpretation with common sense evolution allowing for change. That's my response.
 
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So the Constitution says we can't bear arms unless the state allows it? How does voting work?

You're misinterpreting me. Using your implied logic, since the 2ndA doesn't succinctly state that we can't carry fully automatic Browning 50 cal guns, we ought to be able to buy and carry them willy nilly.

There are legions of lawsuits pending on what 'keep and bear arms' means, if you're asking for quantification on what each position is, that's not possible here.

I think many Supreme Court Decisions are ludicrious, they're hardly the last word but they've been right on many firearms issues lately IMHO. I believe that in general terms, and backed up largely by a number of higher and high court decisions, people should have the right to own firearms and not have the Fed interfere.

What gets sticky is "who gets to say where the limit of those freedoms lie?" and that is the domain of opinion, usually expressed at the State level. Since the 2ndA doesn't clearly spell it out, we have to let laws, voters and courts shake it out. The Texas legislature, presumably representing the voters of Texas, allowed it. I think it's the wrong decision, and it's a legislative decision not a court decision, but it will stand - so be it. I'd rather Texas make that choice (and be wrong in my opinion) than have a meddling Fed try to make it for us.

As far as handguns go, ownership and carry should pretty much be unrestricted (allowing for reasonable limits on felons, illegals, the insane or chemically dependant) and that folks should be able to carry freely, concealed nearly everywhere (allowing for restrictions such a polling places, secured airport locations, etc).

It is my opinion that, to throwbck to the above, since the 2ndA doesn't allow specifically for OC, and since I think it starts crossing that classic libertarian line of "at my nose", it can justly be dis-allowed. Just my opinion.

Courts have allowed it, the legislature in Texas passed it. Doesn't mean I have to agree or believe it's now suddenly a great idea. Don't think the courts are right on gay marriage or Obamacare, either. Win some, lose some.
 
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Alot of people say there are, but preface their statement with one or more of the following:

" I'm an NRA member, but....."

" I'm a strong supporter of the 2A, but......"

This is still my favorite.

Seen some mighty long posts since this with a lot of buts or implied buts...but I suppose everyone is entitled to their own opinion. No ifs, ands or buts about it.
 
So, if I'm interpreting your position correctly, the 2nd Amendment does not provide for open carry now, for some unknown reason or because you say so, but it did allow open carry in 1789, because that is the only type of bearing arms that occurred back then.

I disagree. That is all.

You're misinterpreting me. Using your implied logic, since the 2ndA doesn't succinctly state that we can't carry fully automatic Browning 50 cal guns, we ought to be able to buy and carry them willy nilly.

There are legions of lawsuits pending on what 'keep and bear arms' means, if you're asking for quantification on what each position is, that's not possible here.

I think many Supreme Court Decisions are ludicrious, they're hardly the last word but they've been right on many firearms issues lately IMHO. I believe that in general terms, and backed up largely by a number of higher and high court decisions, people should have the right to own firearms and not have the Fed interfere.

What gets sticky is "who gets to say where the limit of those freedoms lie?" and that is the domain of opinion, usually expressed at the State level. Since the 2ndA doesn't clearly spell it out, we have to let laws, voters and courts shake it out. The Texas legislature, presumably representing the voters of Texas, allowed it. I think it's the wrong decision, and it's a legislative decision not a court decision, but it will stand - so be it. I'd rather Texas make that choice (and be wrong in my opinion) than have a meddling Fed try to make it for us.

As far as handguns go, ownership and carry should pretty much be unrestricted (allowing for reasonable limits on felons, illegals, the insane or chemically dependant) and that folks should be able to carry freely, concealed nearly everywhere (allowing for restrictions such a polling places, secured airport locations, etc).

It is my opinion that, to throwbck to the above, since the 2ndA doesn't allow specifically for OC, and since I think it starts crossing that classic libertarian line of "at my nose", it can justly be dis-allowed. Just my opinion.

Courts have allowed it, the legislature in Texas passed it. Doesn't mean I have to agree or believe it's now suddenly a great idea. Don't think the courts are right on gay marriage or Obamacare, either. Win some, lose some.
 
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Could someone explain how all the others states with OC seem to have no problem but if TX or FL get OC blood will run down the streets?

That appears pretty obvious to me. In the vast majority of states where OC has always been legal it has never been an issue because most people, me included, don't see any good reason to do it, so hardly anyone ever did.

It wasn't until, relatively recently, in the few states that outlawed OC, efforts got started to pass laws to make it legal that it became this big political deal, and suddenly this at best marginal issue has become the Holy Grail of Second Amendment loyalty, and erverybody is up in arms (pun intended) about it, and there is drama all around.

As others have said, if this thread is supposed to be about the Second Amendment, then whether or not one thinks that OC is a good idea should not be the litmus test of sufficient attachment to the 2A. Disagreeing with someone's carrying preferences does not infringe on that person's rights.
 
So, if I'm interpreting your position correctly, the 2nd Amendment does not provide for open carry now, for some unknown reason or because you say so, but it did allow open carry in 1789, because that is the only type of bearing arms that occurred back then.

I disagree. That is all.

No. Not correct. But, I'm fine with your position. And appreciation for the civil tone. I could've used a bit more of it earlier myself, granted. I really have to hang it up now, got pressing things to take care of. But really, I don't want what is largely a group who believe in mostly 95% of the same things to get cannabalistic because of a now *moot* debate. If I offended, I apologize.

Again, have a good night.
 
This is still my favorite.

Seen some mighty long posts since this with a lot of buts or implied buts...but I suppose everyone is entitled to their own opinion. No ifs, ands or buts about it.


As my friend redlevel recently said, why say in 5 words what you can say in 4, why 4 when you can say 3, etc.
 
No. Not correct. But, I'm fine with your position. And appreciation for the civil tone. I could've used a bit more of it earlier myself, granted. I really have to hang it up now, got pressing things to take care of. But really, I don't want what is largely a group who believe in mostly 95% of the same things to get cannabalistic because of a now *moot* debate. If I offended, I apologize.

Again, have a good night.

Then I don't know what your position is, other than you are opposed to open carry.

I still disagree.
 
Fact: Open Carry is not a constitituional right, it appears nowhere in the 2ndA........

To the contrary, the 2A specifically spells it out. The right to keep arms and the right to bear arms shall not be infringed.

Now we may quibble over what those "arms" legally constitute, (nuke backpack, wooden club or handgun), but there is no doubt about the right to keep them and the right to bear them---> Shall Not Be Infringed. Nothing is more clear in the 2A than that.

The right to bear arms shall not be infringed. Bear openly, bear concealed, bear arms balanced on your head.... to bear arms shall not be infringed.
 
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Originally Posted by keith44spl
Wells now,

If that shoe fits....jest lace that sucker up and wear it.... ;):D



You're a fun ride...funny noises and non-stop action! I wonder how long you go?



Wells mister,
you sure use a lot of words to say so lit'l.......

But, we all know what it's about....;):rolleyes:




Heck, I’m a plainclothes LEO and I won’t even set next to uniformed officers at lunch. Why? Because they’re also massive, obvious targets if a fertilizer storm hits without warning. By carrying concealed, I can perhaps do something about it and not be seen.

It isn’t elitism.


Your above statement says all one needs to know.

Any detectives worth his salt knows,
'The spoken word is as free as air....The written word is always there!'



To stay on topic...Yes, I do believe in the 2nd Amendment, every word of it!

.
.
 
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Yes, I believe in the 2nd Amendment. I also think that there are times when some people OC just trying to start an argument and that just inflames the anti gun crowd and media. I am not opposed to OC, it is your right. Generally, I am just as happy to CC. Just my 2 cents on the subject.
 
To the contrary, the 2A specifically spells it out. The right to keep arms and the right to bear arms shall not be infringed.

Now we may quibble over what those "arms" legally constitute, (nuke backpack, wooden club or handgun), but there is no doubt about the right to keep them and the right to bear them---> Shall Not Be Infringed. Nothing is more clear in the 2A than that.

The right to bear arms shall not be infringed. Bear openly, bear concealed, bear arms balanced on your head.... to bear arms shall not be infringed.

There's that darn 2A rearing it's head once again. ;)
 
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