Drop your weapon...

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Packard

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The police are required to identify themselves in any confrontation (mostly).

On TV when a bad guy holds a weapon to a hostage or is menacing a third person the police always yell out, "Police! Drop your weapon!"

As a civilian observing a bad guy holding a knife to a third person's throat are we obligated to yell out, "Drop your weapon!"??

From the hostage's point of view an unannounced man-stopping shot offers the best chance of survival.

I'm of the opinion that if there is a clear shot and you are certain that you can make it, then no warning offers the best chance of a guy guy not be killed.

Opinions?
 
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I wouldn't say what police are required to do without consulting a few lawyers and a lot of police departments.

I have no interest whatsoever in what BS artists portray on TV.

As a civilian, your first duty may be to remember that you are not a policeman, and your second to ask yourself whether you really know what is going on. That said, there may well be circumstances where you DO know what is going on, and reasonably feel that you have a duty to act if you can do so effectively.

It sounds as though if you had not been watching TV, you wouldn't have a question. Are you aware of any law which contains or suggests the order "Drop your weapon!"?
 
Any "drop your weapon" rule would be a Police Department rule, not a statute or ordinance. Police training will dictate what a LEO has to say when confronting an armed suspect.

In the scenario you painted it would seem relatively clear who the attacker was. (I suppose it's always relative and never 100%.) Obviously, if the clarity of the situation is such that deadly force is justified, you are not required to say anything.

The possibility exists, however remotely, that the victim has turned the tables on the attacker and is holding a knife to the attacker's throat/pointing a gun at the attacker's head/otherwise winning the struggle. I'm thinking that is not such a rarity to be totally excluded but the likelihood is very small. Reasonable judgment is the key in any violent confrontation.

Having a conversation about it is never required.
 
From a legal standpoint, there is no law I am aware of that mandates a LEO order a suspect to drop his weapon before deadly force can be used. Most departments train to do so IF it can be done without any risk to the innocents or officers involved - a barricade situation without hostages, for example.

LEO are mandated to identify themselves, if possible. But, sometimes that is even not possible depending on the situation.

As a civilian, my best advice to you is to try an do your best to avoid any situation that puts you in a position that could escalate to a confrontation and possibly deadly force.

If things do go to hell in a hand basket, and that "reasonable belief that you or a loved one is in imminent danger of death or serious injury" threshold has been reached, then your reaction should be swift and sustained until you deem the threat to no longer exist.

There are too many scienarios to consider, and too many possible outcomes. This is where "common sense" comes in. Unfortunately, that's asking a lot out of a lot of people....

Larry
 
Unless it was my wife or a family member my opinion would be to not get involved. I carry a gun to protect my family and myself. As a civilian you have no police powers and you have no idea what has occurred to create this situation. For all you know it could be two drunken brothers that fight like this every week. You get involved, take a shot, and find yourself on trial, or in a costly civil lawsuit.
 
ISCS Yoda said:
The possibility exists, however remotely, that the victim has turned the tables on the attacker and is holding a knife to the attacker's throat/pointing a gun at the attacker's head/otherwise winning the struggle. I'm thinking that is not such a rarity to be totally excluded but the likelihood is very small. Reasonable judgment is the key in any violent confrontation.

Having a conversation about it is never required.
Click to expand...



Good points by Yoda. I will say however, there are a depressing number of "Friendly fire" instances where off duty LEO and civilians are mistakenly shot each year when responding LEO or civilians mistake who is the bad guy, and what the real circumstances are to a situation they come upon. That is why it is really best a civilian does not take action (deadly force) unless he has seen the situation unfold, and is positive of what is really happening. Some situations, like a mass shooting, or killing of children is pretty clear cut, but many are not.

Larry
 
Just renewed my MN Carry permit for the 3rd time. Part of the process here in MN is attending an NRA class and demonstrating proficiency in the use of a pistol. The biggest thing that gets hammered into your head in all the classes I have taken is: The possession of a permit to carry DOES NOT MAKE YOU A COP.

You also cannot be a willing participant in the event. Inserting yourself into a conflict may cause you some additional, unwanted liabilities, no matter how good your intentions may be.... Call 911, be a good witness, and hope the cavalry arrives in time.....
 
Unless it was my wife or a family member my opinion would be to not get involved.
Click to expand...

That is a practical impossibility. While the risk of shooting the good guy, or the wrong guy, exists, you're not going to be able to walk into an armed confrontation and say, "Never mind, you're not my wife or child, or my cousin Festus, so I think I'll leave."

If there is a gun involved you can duck, run, dive for cover, or scream "I SURRENDER" but you're GOING to be involved in one way or another. If you can successfully conceal yourself - then what? If the bad guy has the gun and shoots his victim who do you think is next?

If there is just a knife involved it's different, running WILL get you out of harm's way, but then what? You're going to buy a burger and fries and pretend it didn't happen? I don't think so.

Once you're involved you're involved.

Pretend you are unarmed. NOW you can't do anything much about the weapon. Still, you ARE involved. You can't ignore it, you just can't do anything about it yourself - so get help. But just because it isn't cousin Festus doesn't mean you are not going to get involved - it's far too late for that.

Two drunken brothers? With weapons? And you're going to casually not get involved? I don't think so. That doesn't mean you're going to take sides and kill one but you're going to do something, armed or unarmed, because that's what good citizens do.

Justifiable force could mean a chair on their heads if you're unarmed, a fire hose of water inside some building that has one handy, or a fire extinguisher, or fire your gun into a sofa (nutty, but it might work). You can't walk away - because you're a good citizen. You can argue that you're not threatened so you don't need your gun but you're a good citizen - you'll do something.
 
I could sit here and go point by point for your response. But I think Big Stick sums it up in post #11. And my feelings on this made up scenario.

You also cannot be a willing participant in the event. Inserting yourself into a conflict may cause you some additional, unwanted liabilities, no matter how good your intentions may be.... Call 911, be a good witness, and hope the cavalry arrives in time.....

If you choose to do otherwise that's your prerogative. You're not involved unless you want to be. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the times I responded to a call and found the "good citizen" who tried to stop a fight become the victim when the brothers, cousins, or uncle Festus turned on him. And later the answer was "it was none of his business"
 
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If I see someone threatening someone else, unless the person being threatened is family, I'm going to get myself (and wife etc.) out of the line of fire as quickly as possible.

And then call 911.

Maybe that makes me a bad citizen, but I'm not trained to break up fights and stop crimes. That's why I pay taxes to support the police.
 
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In that scenario there is no requirement for anyone, police or not, to announce before defending the victim.
 
ISCS Yoda said:
Any "drop your weapon" rule would be a Police Department rule, not a statute or ordinance. Police training will dictate what a LEO has to say when confronting an armed suspect.
Click to expand...

I always understood it to mean that a policeman has to announce his presence so as to be legit. Like if he knocks on the door and says pizza man, which if said fast enough can sound like policeman, then the arrest or the entry is illegal. On the street or in plain view however a man in uniform with a badge, handcuffs and a gun is usually not the Maytag repairman.

Oh and as a civilian I'll call 911
 
Fishinfool said:
Good points by Yoda. I will say however, there are a depressing number of "Friendly fire" instances where off duty LEO and civilians are mistakenly shot each year when responding LEO or civilians mistake who is the bad guy, and what the real circumstances are to a situation they come upon. That is why it is really best a civilian does not take action (deadly force) unless he has seen the situation unfold, and is positive of what is really happening. Some situations, like a mass shooting, or killing of children is pretty clear cut, but many are not.

Larry
Click to expand...
This is why you don't get involved. You're not there to enforce the law and you don't know what's going on. There probably is an exception to this but it's one of those one in a gazillion things. Like the guy holding a knife is dressed like a ninja and has a ISIS flag taped to his back and there are headless bodies on the floor
 
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