Ethical Question

Puller said:
Might surprise some, but not even 1911's have a soul no matter how often you fondle it.
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Blasphemer! May John Moses Browning strike you down! :oops:

I personally have no interest in owning Hitler's personal sidearm or whatever. Items with that much provenance should probably be in a museum. Your run-of-the-mill crime gun, again; I have no interest in it, but don't begrudge anyone who does.
 
Ernest Hemingway said that a moral act is one you feel good after. I don't think there is any way that a prevailing opinion can or should answer that question, so I decline to address your request for comment. Our brains are time machines. Just look ahead and determine how you feel about either possible answer in time-displaced retrospect.
 
s&wchad said:
Sounds like you have a problem with war trophies brought home by our greatest generation. Nazis didn't bring them to the US...

I've sold WWII German guns, knives and gear and never thought of ownership as supporting the Reich.
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s&wchad said:
Sounds like you have a problem with war trophies brought home by our greatest generation. Nazis didn't bring them to the US...

I've sold WWII German guns, knives and gear and never thought of ownership as supporting the Reich.
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Funny...As an administrator and someone who has been on this site since 2005 I would think you would know better than to enter into a discussion regarding someone's problems. "Sounds like you have a problem" is accusatory to say the least. The mere fact that you have caused me to need to explain myself is enough of an irritation since less than a week ago I was informed that I should know better than to use a certain level of verbiage by one of the moderators. I have a problem with people that put more energy into negativity than positive.
Good for you...Keep up the good work.
 
Rocketmedic40 said:
Sort of inspired by, but not limited to, the ongoing events in the Middle East:

Would you deliberately seek to own a gun or tool surplused from an organization that (likely) committed human-rights abuses?

For example, there's a lot of third-generation S&W semiautomatics coming back in and floating around places like Robinson Trading Post in decent shape. As a firearm, there's nothing wrong with them, and most have been carried a lot and shot a little. But in the back of my head, I don't know if I'm super-comfortable carrying something that was used as a facilitator for what I personally don't agree with. For the same reasons, I haven't picked up any German Russian-capture milsurps…as much as I love them (and I do), I don't want them enough to buy them.

I don't believe in ghosts or bloody nightmares, but I also don't want Bull Connor's nightstick or the Trapdoor from Wounded Knee in my karma…

What are your thoughts?
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My thoughts? That is possibly the dumbest OP ever made on this forum.

Hey, he asked.
 
38 Specialist said:
Interesting question. I encourage you to follow your gut and pay little heed to what forumites have to say...
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Rather than follow your gut (or worse, your heart LOL) I would encourage adults, especially males, to use your head.

I have a German Kar 98k rifle and Mauser manufactured P.38 pistol that I bought from a WWII vet who brought them back from Europe after D Day. I know for a fact these were used against American forces. I like that they were captured from the enemy.
 
I don't own any Nazi or crime weapons, although I did once own a Hitler Youth dagger, which I passed on to my nephew. It was given to my father by his brother, who had been a Battle of the Bulge POW. I hope that my nephew keeps it in the family, and takes good care of it to pass it on down the family with the story.

I'm a history buff, studied history in college, that was my major. I got into coin and bank note collecting, and have some Third Reich coins and some Japanese Invasion Money (JIM) bank notes. I also have some overprinted German banknotes from their hyperinflation period. To me, these are relics to show others, to teach history. I foresee a time in the future, when people will doubt that the Nazis existed. Third Reich marked relics are important to preserve and show others, and let them know of the evil that was behind them. We must never forget what happened. Never. The result in forgetting is too horrible.

If the proceeds of the sale of a war relic goes to the wrong people, then don't buy it. I don't think there are any Nazis selling Third Reich relics today, but who knows? Could be, but if you know who you are buying from, then that shouldn't be an issue. Same thing with your 3rd gen S&W pistols...are they being offered for sale by terrorists? If so, then don't buy them. If they are pistols captured from terrorists, and the proceeds of the sales don't go to terrorists, then what would be the harm? As has been mentioned repeatedly, firearms are inanimate objects, and are not "cursed" or imbued with the evil of a previous owner. But if you don't believe that, then get a clergy person to bless it, and live happily ever after.
 
Goodtime Charlie said:
I don't own any Nazi or crime weapons, although I did once own a Hitler Youth dagger, which I passed on to my nephew. It was given to my father by his brother, who had been a Battle of the Bulge POW. I hope that my nephew keeps it in the family, and takes good care of it to pass it on down the family with the story.

I'm a history buff, studied history in college, that was my major. I got into coin and bank note collecting, and have some Third Reich coins and some Japanese Invasion Money (JIM) bank notes. I also have some overprinted German banknotes from their hyperinflation period. To me, these are relics to show others, to teach history. I foresee a time in the future, when people will doubt that the Nazis existed. Third Reich marked relics are important to preserve and show others, and let them know of the evil that was behind them. We must never forget what happened. Never. The result in forgetting is too horrible.

If the proceeds of the sale of a war relic goes to the wrong people, then don't buy it. I don't think there are any Nazis selling Third Reich relics today, but who knows? Could be, but if you know who you are buying from, then that shouldn't be an issue. Same thing with your 3rd gen S&W pistols...are they being offered for sale by terrorists? If so, then don't buy them. If they are pistols captured from terrorists, and the proceeds of the sales don't go to terrorists, then what would be the harm? As has been mentioned repeatedly, firearms are inanimate objects, and are not "cursed" or imbued with the evil of a previous owner. But if you don't believe that, then get a clergy person to bless it, and live happily ever after.
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That's kind of the problem. Those particular 3rd gens are being reimported from a society whose demonstrated values and conduct towards other people not of their favor are very much aligned with Jim Crow in function and form, if not name. I've got nothing against the pistols, but I don't want my dollars even tacitly supporting them or their conduct.
 
Rocketmedic40 said:
That's kind of the problem. Those particular 3rd gens are being reimported from a society whose demonstrated values and conduct towards other people not of their favor are very much aligned with Jim Crow in function and form, if not name. I've got nothing against the pistols, but I don't want my dollars even tacitly supporting them or their conduct.
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Where are they coming from, exactly?
 
Goodtime Charlie said:
Where are they coming from, exactly?
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Doesn't really matter and I'm not going to make it about them, people have strong opinions and I'm not changing any of them online. Suffice to say that It's a place with a reputation for treating certain people extremely poorly based on their identities. To me, buying their surplus is like buying Bull Connor's nightstick…I just don't want any of that in my home.

To me, a mil-surp has a story, honor, etc. I've got some inherited Japanese medals and a knife; the Japanese soldier that carried them might not have been pleasant but he served his emperor and Japan with honor. A German rifle or a Communist rifle are (largely) artifacts of a massive struggle, I don't do Nazi stuff though because I find it distasteful to revere it. Police surplus, though, that's a harder one. I try and rationalize it as Barney Fife's revolver or the ones from Adam-12 or my great-great-great grandfather (Texas Ranger Lars Palmstrom), but that only goes so far, and when it's a 1990s vintage semiautomatic that only went to one place that happens to treat people exceptionally unfairly and was used as a sidearm by the people enforcing those deeply-racist laws…it's a harder stretch.
 
Rocketmedic40 said:
Doesn't really matter and I'm not going to make it about them, people have strong opinions and I'm not changing any of them online. Suffice to say that It's a place with a reputation for treating certain people extremely poorly based on their identities. To me, buying their surplus is like buying Bull Connor's nightstick…I just don't want any of that in my home.

To me, a mil-surp has a story, honor, etc. I've got some inherited Japanese medals and a knife; the Japanese soldier that carried them might not have been pleasant but he served his emperor and Japan with honor. A German rifle or a Communist rifle are (largely) artifacts of a massive struggle, I don't do Nazi stuff though because I find it distasteful to revere it. Police surplus, though, that's a harder one. I try and rationalize it as Barney Fife's revolver or the ones from Adam-12 or my great-great-great grandfather (Texas Ranger Lars Palmstrom), but that only goes so far, and when it's a 1990s vintage semiautomatic that only went to one place that happens to treat people exceptionally unfairly and was used as a sidearm by the people enforcing those deeply-racist laws…it's a harder stretch.
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Well, it seems to me that you have already made up your mind, and don't really need our input. Perhaps you just want someone to agree with you, but without the facts, I don't see how we can. Obviously you are not comfortable with purchasing these pistols, so I don't think anything that the forum members say will change your mind.
 
Rocketmedic40 said:
Doesn't really matter and I'm not going to make it about them, people have strong opinions and I'm not changing any of them online. Suffice to say that It's a place with a reputation for treating certain people extremely poorly based on their identities. To me, buying their surplus is like buying Bull Connor's nightstick…I just don't want any of that in my home.

To me, a mil-surp has a story, honor, etc. I've got some inherited Japanese medals and a knife; the Japanese soldier that carried them might not have been pleasant but he served his emperor and Japan with honor. A German rifle or a Communist rifle are (largely) artifacts of a massive struggle, I don't do Nazi stuff though because I find it distasteful to revere it. Police surplus, though, that's a harder one. I try and rationalize it as Barney Fife's revolver or the ones from Adam-12 or my great-great-great grandfather (Texas Ranger Lars Palmstrom), but that only goes so far, and when it's a 1990s vintage semiautomatic that only went to one place that happens to treat people exceptionally unfairly and was used as a sidearm by the people enforcing those deeply-racist laws…it's a harder stretch.
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You realize these pistols are totally ignorant as to who is using them and how. Maybe I have a particularly thick skin about such things. Probably just as well given where some of my stuff comes from and to what use they might have been put. Furthermore, these pistols have already been paid for, so the only place your dollars are going is to the retailer in the US.
 
My personal opinion and only an opinion based solely on what's been posted: The OP is an effort by the poster to make a political statement without getting dinged for such about a topic he feels so strongly about he can't contain it. I doubt the poster gives one hoot about the 3rd gens one way or another.

I don't feel the OP is an appropriate topic for the forum. But I'm no expert on forum rules and I've probably violated one with my response. Oh well!
 
oink said:
My personal opinion and only an opinion based solely on what's been posted: The OP is an effort by the poster to make a political statement without getting dinged for such about a topic he feels so strongly about he can't contain it. I doubt the poster gives one hoot about the 3rd gens one way or another.

I don't feel the OP is an appropriate topic for the forum. But I'm no expert on forum rules and I've probably violated one with my response. Oh well!
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well that's judgemental as all heck. Theres plenty of stuff I don't particularly want to own- unfortunately a lot of police surplus falls in that category. Just like how I'm not particularly interested in LAPD-marked batons from the 90s or Mayor Daly's vintage 1960s riot gear, I'm also somewhat averse to firearms used by police as a "badge of office"/sidearm when they're enforcing something that I personally don't agree with.
As discussed, most milsurps are different(ish), with the caveat being that obvious Nazi iconography or known connections to heinous events and crimes is still not mojo I want to support by owning, even if those artifacts and dollars have nothing to do with the original users.
 
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John in Yuma said:
Everything made in communist China comes from a country swimming in "human rights abuse." Hope you never buy/own anything from there.
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I personally support your statement 1000%. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to live up to that ideal.

Examples:
If I'm in a store and want top buy an item, I will search for one NOT made in China. But sometimes, it's a part I need, so I have no choice.

Recently, I saw an ad for some shoes that were just what I was looking for. But before sending in the order, I researched their web site. "100% Made in USA" proudly displayed. Only hours after placing the order I got a tracking number. Shipped from dingdongfoo province. Now I'm SPITTING NAILS". The shoes came in a plastic bag, and are only "fair", but they have no ID at all as to manufacture or even the size number.

No matter how hard I try, I seem to get screwed every time.
 
FWIW I think this is a perfectly reasonable question, and I don't think the OP is attempting to conceal a political agenda.

For the people who are curious about the details, I *assume* the country in question is South Africa. I also collect Swiss Army Knives, and there is a model of the Victorinox Soldier that was used by the SADF whose rarity attracts some collectors, while its history gives others pause.

I think there may be a bit of projection going on. I haven't seen anyone casting aspersions on others' collecting habits. If the question asks annoys you, perhaps moving on might be the proper response.

Finally, the fact we all don't like the same sorts of things is a positive, not a negative.
 
Greyman50 said:
Sorry but have had several 1911s and 1911A-1s that had " the feeling". As we all say we wish firearms could talk as a few ones I got a story from the Veteran who used them.
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I have a bayonet collection and had several in my car that I had just purchased. A friend, who claims to be a psychic, saw them and wanted to look. She became very upset with one of them and she said to get it out of her sight. Her words were evil and death.

THAT blade had obvious signs of blood pitting.
 
Puller said:
Might surprise some, but not even 1911's have a soul no matter how often you fondle it.
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I'm guilty of using the term "soul" as well when referring to a particular type or model of a gun. You're right, a gun has no soul. However, I think what we all mean is that a gun has perpetual fervor and desirability. Many don't and won't ever, but I'll avoid getting into the ones that fall in that category.
 
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