Factory Rebluing for a Model 10
- Thread starter NY-1
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I started using Ballistol years ago when it was recommended for use in several Heckler & Koch firearms I was using. I never had any problems with it in anything I used it for including long term storage or damage to finish. The only firearm I've had any trouble with firearm finish was the "squid ink" finish applied to a certain company's AKM products. If brake clean will remove the finish it is nothing more than paint.
When I got back into black powder muzzle loading and cartridge firearms I learned that black powder does not work well with petroleum (oil) products or at least petroleum products that do not mix well with water. Ballistol was highly rated by most of the well informed black powder people I knew then and does to this day. It is the last patch I put down a barrel and the last brushing (I use a shaving brush) before I put something away. A good way to tell if you are doing a good job cleaning is whether or not you have any rust colored residue on the first cleaning patch you put down a barrel after resting for a period of days or weeks, etc. When mixed 50/50 with water and shaken it makes a very good patch lube, far better than spit. I use teflon coated patching material now but used to use the "moose milk" lube on all my patches.
Some people I know will not use Ballistol because it was developed by the Germans during WWII, it is a by product of the mineral oil or coal. To my way of looking at it, its not much different from using Lube Guard which was developed as a replacement for Sperm Whale Oil. By the way Lube Guard is the absolute best thing to add to your black powder cartridge lube, once again because it is not a petroleum (oil) by product.
When I got back into black powder muzzle loading and cartridge firearms I learned that black powder does not work well with petroleum (oil) products or at least petroleum products that do not mix well with water. Ballistol was highly rated by most of the well informed black powder people I knew then and does to this day. It is the last patch I put down a barrel and the last brushing (I use a shaving brush) before I put something away. A good way to tell if you are doing a good job cleaning is whether or not you have any rust colored residue on the first cleaning patch you put down a barrel after resting for a period of days or weeks, etc. When mixed 50/50 with water and shaken it makes a very good patch lube, far better than spit. I use teflon coated patching material now but used to use the "moose milk" lube on all my patches.
Some people I know will not use Ballistol because it was developed by the Germans during WWII, it is a by product of the mineral oil or coal. To my way of looking at it, its not much different from using Lube Guard which was developed as a replacement for Sperm Whale Oil. By the way Lube Guard is the absolute best thing to add to your black powder cartridge lube, once again because it is not a petroleum (oil) by product.
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For my .02 worth, Ballistol leaves a greasy feeling that I couldn't tollerate, and it never cleaned the barrel and chambers as well as either Hoppe's or Break Free did.
--------but it just doesn't stick as well
That's an unfortunately common misconception, perhaps fed by the belief bluing is something applied to the surface. Bluing IS the surface. Another name for it is black oxide------oxide, as in rust. Bluing can be and is most commonly removed by wear. Aside from that, anything that removes common rust from ferrous metal will remove bluing/black oxide. (That's why we keep harping at folks to stay the hell away from their gun with steel wool!!) If I recall my book learnin' correctly, black oxide is a tougher finish----more difficult to remove.
The money you pay for refinishing breaks down like this: Perhaps as much as a nickel out of every dollar goes to pay for the bluing itself------dump the gun and some corrosive chemicals into a container, put some heat into it, and go on break. It'll likely be done when you get back. The other 95 cents goes for the preparation of the surface----polishing. The preference for a factory refinish is (or at least was) fed by the fact the preparation for finishing is done by the same people using the same equipment (formed polishing wheels) that do new guns. The preference for Fords is fed by the fact they do the surface prep BY HAND----------and the results are superior (vastly superior) to anything done by anybody with polishing wheels. (That which is "vastly superior" is Fords' best (Master Blue?) compared to S&W's Bright Blue----or whatever they call it nowadays. You can see the difference across a good size room------much finer polish, slightly darker color. I've never seen Fords' regular, everyday finish; so I can't speak to that-------but I will anyway. I suspect the difference is in the polishing----much finer grit for the Master Blue.
End of mini-rant!
Ralph Tremaine
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DWalt
Member
For many years, my philosophy has been that in most cases, if you want a old gun to look like new again, you are much better off buying a new gun. I have numerous reblued old guns (of all kinds), but the big difference was that I blued all of them myself, so it didn't really cost me anything out of pocket. And none of them were in collectible condition before bluing.
Master Polish,,Bright Blue,,what ever anyone might call their (re)bluing,,the process of Hot Salt blue is the same.
The preparation of the surface is what makes 95% of the difference in the final look of the job.
Anyone can make the steel look shiny.
But soft edges, rounded corners and even ever so slightly dished out screw counter sinks and factory lettering are the signs of less than quality job.
The polishing job can look like a chrome plated Caddy bumper, the bluing job on that steel will look like deep blue water.
But the 'bluing job' is second rate overall because of the polishing job.
Polishing is one of the most difficult things in gun work to do well and to do well with in a timely manner to make $$ at.
Enter the machine buffers and even machine polishers with hard wheels and belts.
They still take ungodly amts of time to learn how to hand hold the parts and maneuver them across the spinning surfaces to polish them and not cut down corners, destroy lettering and dish out pockets.
Yes hand polishing is always an option. But it'll never do if the aim is to make money and a timely turnaround. It is slow tiresome work and usually set aside for custom and one-off restoration type jobs.
Many hand polished jobs fail to meet the high luster demands of some items.
Machine polishing is sometimes the only way to get that and then the danger of damaging the surface and edges once again is there.
Hand polishing won't do on many restorations because the guns being restored were not hand polished to begin with. They were machine polished by master craftsmen at a belt or hardwheel. To restore that look, you have to do that type of polishing.,,and keep the grit lines running in the orig directions. This latter point is something a lot of custom refinishes seem to like to change. Especially the polishing grit lines on things like bbl's, the sides of Winchester L/A's, the flutes on the revolver cylinder,,ect.
The factorys had people in the polishing rooms doing just that for hours on end, most for their entire career. The polishing wheels and set-ups made and formed, balanced and prepped just for the specific parts they made.
That's hardly an option for the average refinisher that takes in most any make firearm for refinishing. He/she has to still do a 'great job' of polishing,,everyone wants that.
But still do it in short time so as to not be too expensive for the customer and still make a profit for themselves.
Plus be able to handle all the polishing that'll be thrown at you in the different types of guns out there. But with minimum equipment so you don't have to equip a 'polishing room' like a factory which would put you under quickly and still not be enough.
So when someone says they can 'polish & reblue' your pre-27 and make it look just like it did when it left S&W and do it for $400,,,,
They just told you they are going to Restore the metal finish.
I would not expect it for that price in todays world.
Perhaps a nice polish and reblue with some soft edges and lettering,,
but not a restoration and that is what most people seem to think they are going to get.
IMO, S&W's that were blued at the factory in the late 60's, 70's and on were nothing other than Hot Salt Blued.
They look like it, they wear like it and they strip off like it.
I know the official word is that S&W was still using the Carbona Oil bluing process,,but I don't see it.
Perhaps for some special revolvers? Maybe?,,but not the common everyday off the line stuff.
Carbona Blue (American Gas Furnace Co Bluing System) has a very distinctive look to it, as does the earlier OpenHearth-Charcoal Blue.
Hot Salt Blue does also.
DuLite has been around in the US gun industry since the late 1930's.
It's been known how to mix a nitrate bluing solns before that.
Mauser switched to a Hot Salt Bluing mix from Durferrit in the mid 1930's ( Durferrit Co is still around and still makes all kinds of heat treatment salts and compounds).
The process was certainly not an unkn or secret.
It's still the prep and quality of the polishing underneath that is the key.
JMO of course.
The preparation of the surface is what makes 95% of the difference in the final look of the job.
Anyone can make the steel look shiny.
But soft edges, rounded corners and even ever so slightly dished out screw counter sinks and factory lettering are the signs of less than quality job.
The polishing job can look like a chrome plated Caddy bumper, the bluing job on that steel will look like deep blue water.
But the 'bluing job' is second rate overall because of the polishing job.
Polishing is one of the most difficult things in gun work to do well and to do well with in a timely manner to make $$ at.
Enter the machine buffers and even machine polishers with hard wheels and belts.
They still take ungodly amts of time to learn how to hand hold the parts and maneuver them across the spinning surfaces to polish them and not cut down corners, destroy lettering and dish out pockets.
Yes hand polishing is always an option. But it'll never do if the aim is to make money and a timely turnaround. It is slow tiresome work and usually set aside for custom and one-off restoration type jobs.
Many hand polished jobs fail to meet the high luster demands of some items.
Machine polishing is sometimes the only way to get that and then the danger of damaging the surface and edges once again is there.
Hand polishing won't do on many restorations because the guns being restored were not hand polished to begin with. They were machine polished by master craftsmen at a belt or hardwheel. To restore that look, you have to do that type of polishing.,,and keep the grit lines running in the orig directions. This latter point is something a lot of custom refinishes seem to like to change. Especially the polishing grit lines on things like bbl's, the sides of Winchester L/A's, the flutes on the revolver cylinder,,ect.
The factorys had people in the polishing rooms doing just that for hours on end, most for their entire career. The polishing wheels and set-ups made and formed, balanced and prepped just for the specific parts they made.
That's hardly an option for the average refinisher that takes in most any make firearm for refinishing. He/she has to still do a 'great job' of polishing,,everyone wants that.
But still do it in short time so as to not be too expensive for the customer and still make a profit for themselves.
Plus be able to handle all the polishing that'll be thrown at you in the different types of guns out there. But with minimum equipment so you don't have to equip a 'polishing room' like a factory which would put you under quickly and still not be enough.
So when someone says they can 'polish & reblue' your pre-27 and make it look just like it did when it left S&W and do it for $400,,,,
They just told you they are going to Restore the metal finish.
I would not expect it for that price in todays world.
Perhaps a nice polish and reblue with some soft edges and lettering,,
but not a restoration and that is what most people seem to think they are going to get.
IMO, S&W's that were blued at the factory in the late 60's, 70's and on were nothing other than Hot Salt Blued.
They look like it, they wear like it and they strip off like it.
I know the official word is that S&W was still using the Carbona Oil bluing process,,but I don't see it.
Perhaps for some special revolvers? Maybe?,,but not the common everyday off the line stuff.
Carbona Blue (American Gas Furnace Co Bluing System) has a very distinctive look to it, as does the earlier OpenHearth-Charcoal Blue.
Hot Salt Blue does also.
DuLite has been around in the US gun industry since the late 1930's.
It's been known how to mix a nitrate bluing solns before that.
Mauser switched to a Hot Salt Bluing mix from Durferrit in the mid 1930's ( Durferrit Co is still around and still makes all kinds of heat treatment salts and compounds).
The process was certainly not an unkn or secret.
It's still the prep and quality of the polishing underneath that is the key.
JMO of course.
Spending very much on reblueing a model 10 doesn’t make sense; kind of like paying someone restore a Toyota Corolla.
Fox4506
Member
I would agree with touching it up with a cold blue. I did this with a couple of police trade-ins I bought, and I was pleasantly surprised. I think it will improve it enough that you will be surprised. It's easy and cheap. Perfect for a shooter that you don't want to spend a lot of money on.
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