Fatal Shooting During CCW Class

[pittpa]

Training should be mandatory, and it should be thourough.

All I know is I see a LOT of incompetent people out there with guns. And some steps need to be taken to lessen those people.

Ironically some posters thought the training was too thorough. Trainers should be competent.


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[Rastoff]

And I think any sane, law abiding citizen should be able to own or carry a gun if they want to. I live in PA now, and a 21 year old can walk into a gun store and walk out with a gun 10 minutes later. I think that is a serious lapse of good judgement.

These statements are completely contradictory. You think people should be able to buy what they want, but a grown adult getting it in 10 minutes is a lapse in good judgement?

What age is acceptable? What time limit is acceptable? What about bicycles? People get killed on those things every year. Why not limit who can get those? Why not mandatory training for those?

 

[Protected One]

These statements are completely contradictory. You think people should be able to buy what they want, but a grown adult getting it in 10 minutes is a lapse in good judgement?

What age is acceptable? What time limit is acceptable? What about bicycles? People get killed on those things every year. Why not limit who can get those? Why not mandatory training for those?

People don't kill others with bicycles. Bad example, but I understand your main point.

 

[Rastoff]

Yeah, people don't use bicycles to kill people, but it's the logical conclusion of this line of thinking.

First it's keeping us safe from others with useless legislation that won't help. Then it's keeping us safe from ourselves with more legislation that won't help either. I've seen it here in CA and in the military. It's born of people who say, "We must do something!" without thinking about what should be done.

 

[Muss Muggins]

People don't kill others with bicycles. Bad example, but I understand your main point.

All it takes is a head shot . . .

Man Swings Bicycle at Cops . . .

 

[ladder13]

It's for the children.

 

[Protected One]

All it takes is a head shot . . .

Man Swings Bicycle at Cops . . .

That's hilarious!

 

[Muss Muggins]

First of all, I'm retired, so my former profession has nothing to do with it. And my attitude is not elitist. I just don't want people to needlessly get shot or killed because somebody who chose to excercise their right to bear arms didn't accept the responsibility to do so safely. Look how many posters here have witnessed atrocious gun handling by others. It's an epidemic. Just because most of the time nobody gets hurt doesn't make it any better.

And I think any sane, law abiding citizen should be able to own or carry a gun if they want to. I live in PA now, and a 21 year old can walk into a gun store and walk out with a gun 10 minutes later. I think that is a serious lapse of good judgement. If that makes me an elitist in your book, then you and I have very different books.

Well, I'm retired too, but that's really not the issue here. So, if I'm reading you right, my son shouldn't be able to hit the gun store down the street and walk out with a pistol on his 21st. birthday, which would be his constitutional right and his right in Missouri? Because the news media is fraught with stories of people needlessly exercising their right to own a pistol and negligently mowing down innocent people. You are making stuff up, which probably works at the PA coffee shop as you waddle in and bluster about at the table(s) of four or five old guys who worked at the railroad or the local muni pd and are fascinated by your big city experience, which likely amounted to standing around while ten patrol cars circled up to handle any incident you may have witnessed. I know your kind. All horn, no drive shaft, or in Texas, all hat, no cattle.

You're not an elitist, you're a hoplophobe. You really don't like guns, and you want to decide who gets to buy, own and carry one. Your standard is that they don't "look right" or they're too young, even though they can join the military at 18, but you don't like them buying a gun for three more years. You are typical of the upper east coast New York urban fear of firearms. "I can have a gun because I'm normal, but I need to evaluate everyone else." I've carried some really mean looking guns in service of this country for years to defend the right of anyone who is legally able to possess a firearm. You want to be the clearinghouse for that, and your standard is age and "I don't like the way they look." It's America. People get to own and carry guns. Get over it. And again, you're not an elitist, you're anti gun for people you don't think look and act like you. In short, you're a tool.

And where exactly in the Constitution is the "responsibility to do so safely?"

 

[Wise_A]

Speaking entirely as an urban-born, upper east coast New Yorker who's been shooting since before I could vote, I'm with Moss.

We don't abridge the First Amendment because some people are neo-Nazis. In fact, we live in a great nation that takes such incredible care to provide equal protection under the law to all of its citizens. Even the ones whose beliefs are completely antithetical to our own. That's how friggin' awesome America is.

So why would we behave one way with the First, and another way with the Second?

The other thing is--and this is key--who gets to decide what qualifies as sufficient training? You? The government? The NRA? The guy that sells the guns? It's absurd...no, it's downright un-American. Lemme tell ya, I know a fair few guys who've yet to see a class they wouldn't pony up to take. And a fair few of those guys are still total idiots when it comes to the operation of a firearm.

Similarly, I know a fair few instructors who aren't much better.

It sure would be swell if everyone who wanted to own a gun took the time to become proficient in its safe and effective operation. Just the same as it sure would be swell if nobody decided to be a skinhead.

But, we're lucky because we live in America. And that means nobody can legislate away things they don't like.

 

[kbm6893]

Wait, this happened during a mandatory training class and your solution, to stop accidents like this, is to have more mandatory training? Are you serious?

If you lived in CA you might feel differently. Californians have given control of guns over to the state. They wanted to keep us safe so they forced us to:

• Wait 10 days to buy a handgun.
• Then they extended the wait to all guns.
• Then they limited magazine capacity to 10 rounds.
• Then the banned assault rifles (even though there is no such thing).
• Then they required registering handguns bought from out of state.
• They they required registering handguns bought in state.
• Then they required registering all guns.
• Then they required new guns to include a non-existent technology called micro stamping. This means we will never be able to buy any newly designed gun and many of the older designs are becoming extinct.

This list is just a taste of what we have to deal with. There's much, much more.

Current legislation awaiting the governor's signature will require us to register to buy ammo. We have to literally beg the county sheriff if we want to legally carry a concealed gun. If he approves, we then have to pay more to take training mandated by law.

This is just a small list of what we have to put up with. It's beyond ridiculous. Now you want to require everyone to take state mandated training just to have a gun? Yeah, what a great idea. Give control of our rights over to the government because they've done such a good job with the DMV.

This is a really bad idea.

Did you read the whole thread? This "class" if you can call it that was being run by incompetents. No check for live ammo before students entered the classroom. Doing malfunction drills in a classroom to begin with, instead of out on the range. Instructor, who by all accounts was a real professional, servicing law enforcement weapons and a real pillar of the community, wasn't even in the same ROOM where the shooting occurred. Who was watching the class? Then we've heard from other instructors here, who have gone on record as saying the classes they teach are virtually impossible to fail, regardless of your abilities, and one even went as far as to say you can't fail people who have paid for your class, because they would complain and you would be in for a world of problems.

I am advocating for quality training. Training where if you demonstrate that you are incompetent, that you DONT pass! Training that uses instructors who are highly competent, and check to make sure their is a NO AMMO anywhere other than a live fire range.

California's gun laws are irrelevant to this thread. They are atrocious. You know I am not advocating we follow their lead.

 

[ladder13]

When you really don't believe in the Constitution and ....

 

[kbm6893]

Well, I'm retired too, but that's really not the issue here. So, if I'm reading you right, my son shouldn't be able to hit the gun store down the street and walk out with a pistol on his 21st. birthday, which would be his constitutional right and his right in Missouri? Because the news media is fraught with stories of people needlessly exercising their right to own a pistol and negligently mowing down innocent people. You are making stuff up, which probably works at the PA coffee shop as you waddle in and bluster about at the table(s) of four or five old guys who worked at the railroad or the local muni pd and are fascinated by your big city experience, which likely amounted to standing around while ten patrol cars circled up to handle any incident you may have witnessed. I know your kind. All horn, no drive shaft, or in Texas, all hat, no cattle.

You're not an elitist, you're a hoplophobe. You really don't like guns, and you want to decide who gets to buy, own and carry one. Your standard is that they don't "look right" or they're too young, even though they can join the military at 18, but you don't like them buying a gun for three more years. You are typical of the upper east coast New York urban fear of firearms. "I can have a gun because I'm normal, but I need to evaluate everyone else." I've carried some really mean looking guns in service of this country for years to defend the right of anyone who is legally able to possess a firearm. You want to be the clearinghouse for that, and your standard is age and "I don't like the way they look." It's America. People get to own and carry guns. Get over it. And again, you're not an elitist, you're anti gun for people you don't think look and act like you. In short, you're a tool.

And where exactly in the Constitution is the "responsibility to do so safely?"

Something wrong with you? First of all, I'm 45. Surely younger than you. Second, I don't waddle. In fantastic shape. Third, I love guns. Always looking to buy another. Fourth, I encourage everybody I know to get one. Have taken quite a few people to the range. People I know and trust, of course. Sixth, a kid who joins the military at 18 gets trained to use his weapons before he gets them, which is exactly what I am advocating. And if he screws up with it he gets a royal *** kicking at the least. You can't even graduate basic training or boot camp if you don't qualify with your weapon. Seventh, your son SHOULD be able to get a gun on his 21st birthday. Just know how to use the damn thing safely, is all!

Choose a gun based in how they "look"? Where did I say that? Just bought another AR last week! Was comparing the M&P Sport I was buying with a Bushmaster another customer was buying. Wished him well with it.

As for my "big city experience", I have plenty. Responded to more calls a day then you probably did in a week. Who are you to disparage my career or work ethic? I was just a working cop in a ghetto, in a city that has nearly 3000 homicides a year at its peak. You know nothing about me or the NYPD. How many movies or tv shows they make about your Podunk police department?

 

[kbm6893]

Speaking entirely as an urban-born, upper east coast New Yorker who's been shooting since before I could vote, I'm with Moss.

We don't abridge the First Amendment because some people are neo-Nazis. In fact, we live in a great nation that takes such incredible care to provide equal protection under the law to all of its citizens. Even the ones whose beliefs are completely antithetical to our own. That's how friggin' awesome America is.

So why would we behave one way with the First, and another way with the Second?

The other thing is--and this is key--who gets to decide what qualifies as sufficient training? You? The government? The NRA? The guy that sells the guns? It's absurd...no, it's downright un-American. Lemme tell ya, I know a fair few guys who've yet to see a class they wouldn't pony up to take. And a fair few of those guys are still total idiots when it comes to the operation of a firearm.

Similarly, I know a fair few instructors who aren't much better.

It sure would be swell if everyone who wanted to own a gun took the time to become proficient in its safe and effective operation. Just the same as it sure would be swell if nobody decided to be a skinhead.

But, we're lucky because we live in America. And that means nobody can legislate away things they don't like.

This is my last post in this since we're going in circles. But we DO abridge the first amendment. Can you incite a crowd to kill? And when some neo nazi's spout their ****, does some kid walking down the street get shot?

You say something stupid, nobody dies. You screw with a gun, somebody does. Get the difference? And don't give me the "hate speech encourages people to kill" argument. First of all, if it can be proven that the speech is what spurred the acts, then the speaker is held accountable. Second, there are far too many variables that even go into that process. Did the person misinterpret the speech? Was he mentally ill? We're the words taken out of context? And that dead person wasn't a casualty of you excerising your "right". He was a living person with a family who loved him, and he's gone forever, because some people have no business owning a gun. Sure they have the right to own one, but they still shouldn't. And the dead guy had a right, too. He had the right to live. How many of these incidents ever result in charges? How much you wanna bet the instructor supervising that class, or the shooter, are even charged? Their actions are the very definition of manslaughter. They were reckless. At the very least negligent. Yes, incidences like the one at the gun shop aren't the price of freedom. They're the price of stupidity. And there is not one person here, including Muggins, who would feel the same way if they were identifying the body of their loved one in the morgue because some idiot screwed up and took the life of their loved one.

I hear the words "rights" used often in threads like these. What about the word "responsibility"? So while Muggins' son has the RIGHT to walk into a gun store on his 21st birthday, he also has the RESPONSIBILITY to learn how to safely use that weapon. Problem is his right to own that gun is affirmed by the constitution and state law, but there is no such law making sure he is responsible with it. Maybe he will take the time to learn how to use it. Maybe he won't. Who knows?

I know laws can't stop EVERY ND. Bill Jordan had one and killed another agent. Nobody more competent than he was with a gun. So do I think mandatory training would wipe out EVERY incident like this? Of course not. But it would minimize them. And I don't see it as a violation of my second amendment rights, anymore than I believe me not being able to string claymore mines around my house or mount a 50 cal to my truck is a violation of my rights, although sadly some here do.

 

[MichiganScott]

First of all, I'm retired, so my former profession has nothing to do with it. And my attitude is not elitist. I just don't want people to needlessly get shot or killed because somebody who chose to excercise their right to bear arms didn't accept the responsibility to do so safely. Look how many posters here have witnessed atrocious gun handling by others. It's an epidemic. Just because most of the time nobody gets hurt doesn't make it any better.

And I think any sane, law abiding citizen should be able to own or carry a gun if they want to. I live in PA now, and a 21 year old can walk into a gun store and walk out with a gun 10 minutes later. I think that is a serious lapse of good judgement. If that makes me an elitist in your book, then you and I have very different books.

Attitudes don't change upon retirement. They are formed over your working career.

If we have spent any time at all at a gun range, we have seen atrocious gun handling. I have lost count of the number of times I have grabbed a student's hand or the barrel of their rifle/hand gun as they start to point it somewhere other than directly down range. If they are flunked out, they still will have a gun. It is neither my place or yours to decide if they should possess one.

There's nothing wrong with a 21 y/o walking into a gun store and walking out 10 minutes later with a gun. It's very hard to familiarize yourself with it if you can't possess it. How do you know that they aren't going to get some sort of training with it, even if the training is only a well meaning friend? I would bet the vast majority of posters on this forum have had little or no formal training.

Driver's licenses are issued in my state with a minimum number of hours behind the wheel with a parent or other adult. It's on the honor system. Cars are as deadly, and maybe more so, than an handgun. There is no constitutional right to drive.

 

[fatcat3]

First of all, I'm retired, so my former profession has nothing to do with it. And my attitude is not elitist. I just don't want people to needlessly get shot or killed because somebody who chose to excercise their right to bear arms didn't accept the responsibility to do so safely. Look how many posters here have witnessed atrocious gun handling by others. It's an epidemic. Just because most of the time nobody gets hurt doesn't make it any better.

And I think any sane, law abiding citizen should be able to own or carry a gun if they want to. I live in PA now, and a 21 year old can walk into a gun store and walk out with a gun 10 minutes later. I think that is a serious lapse of good judgement. If that makes me an elitist in your book, then you and I have very different books.

do you have to show a drivers license to BUY a car in P.A.?

 

[kbm6893]

do you have to show a drivers license to BUY a car in P.A.?

Just bought a new car three weeks ago. Yes, I had to show my license for the loan application. Think they would have let me drive the car off the lot if I showed them a state issued non driver ID?

My wife knows very little about guns. I've tried to get her more involved. We've been to the range a few times. She knows how to load the revolver and she can hit a torso sized target at 7 yards. Not a very good group but they're all in the black. Would I be comfortable with her or someone like her walking into a gun store and walking out with a gun without at least the minimal training she has received? No I wouldn't. But the difference is she doesn't really like guns. She's not some 21 year old who has been playing call of duty for 6 years and now wants to get the real thing.

I have the right to burn a flag at a military funeral, but I bet most here wouldn't support that. I have the right to pogo stick into church, but I wouldn't do that either.

I'll wrap this up. I believe a person should have to demonstrate a minimum level of proficiency before buying a deadly weapon. I don't see that as a violation of my 2nd Amendment rights. I agree that is a slight inconvenience, but one I am more than willing to deal with if it prevents an incident like these. I mentioned my friend who had a loaded gun in his sock drawer for 2 and a half years because he thought it was unloaded because the mag was out. Yes, he was wrong to not become better acquainted with the weapon. yes, he should have read the owner's manual. But he didn't do either of those things, and neither do millions of other people. Go to youtube and watch some of those videos. People are lazy. They're overconfident.

I teach a law enforcement class now to high school kids. We teach a handgun safety class. And this is in "anti-gun NY"! Orange County, to be precise. We used 8MM blank firing Beretta 92's, and we have non-firing rifles and shotguns. I always start the first day of the course with a question to the class. "Who here has experience with firearms?". Several hands go up. They've gone shooting with their father or uncle or older brother. I call them up and ask them to load and unload the Beretta. No blanks in it of course. Only on the firing line. EVERYTIME, they sweep the room, put the hands in front of the muzzle, or do something else that is stupid. Then I get the hunters to come up. Ask them to unload the 12 gauge shotgun. Again, non-firing orange barreled weapon. EVERY ONE of them does the "shuck the fore end until all the shells come out" method, that is advocated by NOBODY. NONE of them were aware of the proper way to unload the magazine tube in a shotgun, without shucking out live shells. And these are the people who "know what they are doing"! My partner off let a 12 gauge blast once. He found the pistol grip shotgun under a bed in a drug house. Tried to unload it by shucking them out, and BOOM. Gun wasn't maintained at all. Rust and sludge had the firing pin slightly protruding. When he chambered that first round, the pin hit the primer and BOOM. Why did it happen? Because the NYPD doesn't teach their recruits how to operate weapons they won't be carrying, so he didn't know how to unload a shotgun. If you go to a unit that uses shotguns, you get sent to shotgun training.

So I have very little faith that people are going to take the time and effort necessary to learn their weapon. I know many will, but many won't. And since they don't walk around with a sign saying "I don't really know what I am doing", I treat them all the same. Until I know you, I have zero faith in your ability to handle a weapon.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Just bought a new car three weeks ago. Yes, I had to show my license for the loan application. Think they would have let me drive the car off the lot if I showed them a state issued non driver ID?

You showed your license to confirm you were the actual person agreeing to pay the loan off. If your loan went through, I'm pretty sure the dealer doesn't care who drives the car and what his/her license status is once it's yours. The PD and your insurance company might be a different matter . . .

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

This "class" if you can call it that was being run by incompetents. No check for live ammo....

By your own definition of "incompetent", dry firing with a live round in the chamber as you described your own ND, doesn't sound any less "incompetent" to me.

But unsafe gun handling should be an immediate fail. Come back in six months and try again.

After your ND, did you turn in your carry permit and gun for six months?

 

[kbm6893]

By your own definition of "incompetent", dry firing with a live round in the chamber as you described your own ND, doesn't sound any less "incompetent" to me.



After your ND, did you turn in your carry permit and gun for six months?

No. I spackled the wall and repainted, and I counted myself lucky. And I never did it again. And as I have said many times, competent training won't eradicate ALL ND's. But it will surely reduce them. And as for my own ND, I was pointing the weapon in a safe direction. I knew I was the only one upstairs. It was my old apartment in my parents house when I was living at home. I sure wasn't pointing it at a wall that seperates a classroom and the sales area of a gun shop.

 

[kbm6893]

You showed your license to confirm you were the actual person agreeing to pay the loan off. If your loan went through, I'm pretty sure the dealer doesn't care who drives the car and what his/her license status is once it's yours. The PD and your insurance company might be a different matter . . .

Wrong. They also required proof of insurance. Had I showed them a state issued non drivers ID, I am quite sure they would have said "who is driving the car out of here?" I don't even know if you can register or insure a car if you have no license. I know if your license is temporarily suspended that you do not have to take the car off the road, but an unlicensed driver insuring or registering a car? I don't see it. Just because I know nobody who is unlicensed.