Fatal Shooting During CCW Class

[hkcavalier]

Frankly, a CCW class taught by a gun shop always rubs me the wrong way. For one thing, there's a bit of a conflict of interest--"Your J-frame .38 Spl is insufficient, you need a Blasticool 3950 AMX!"--and for another, doing the class right requires throwing good business strategy right out the window. Not all shop owners are like that, but I can think of one shop in my area that offers "training" like that.

I'm not a civilian range instructor, but I've helped a number of friends learn how to shoot.

Some have shown up with Ring of Fire guns (Jimenez, Bryco, Jennings, etc.) and that's where I draw the line. I tell them they need a better firearm that's going to go bang every time the trigger is pulled and the safety is disengaged and nothing else. Usually I point them to the excellent Canik guns or used Glocks since I know they don't want to invest big bucks. I'll suggest a Hi-Point over a Ring of Fire gun, but not with great enthusiasm.

I know there are people who have had good luck with them but I've never seen a Ring of Fire handgun survive an extended shooting session 100%.

TexasRaider: I have seen the same change in the gun enthusiast world (and I'm only 40). I believe the primary difference is the lack of mentors i.e. fathers/uncles/grandfathers/family friends that start with the teaching and then move on to shooting. Now you have a significant percentage of new gun owners who have no background in shooting who show up to a gun store, buy something, and go about it on their own. Not that this should be restricted or illegal, it's just not the best way, kind of like trying to get your driver's license without taking classes first (legal if you're old enough). I had a dad who taught me the basics, plus the Boy Scouts (still the strictest range I have ever been on), and later the Marines to ingrain the rules. A 25 year old buying an AR at Wal-Mart may be starting from zero.

So...it's up to the rest of us to help. I'm not shy, I've talked with guys out in the woods that couldn't hit a propane tank (hopefully empty) at 100 yards with mag dumps and offered them some pointers. If they act like jackasses I shrug it off...unless they're really unsafe and I call the Funny Circus or state guys and let 'em know what's up. When you say, "somebody oughta," it usually means you're the somebody.

 

[kbm6893]

I go shooting with about maybe three or four people I trust. Period. I used to teach, but not anymore. I hate to say it, but I just don't trust many folks anymore due to too many close calls I've had at the hands of both civilians and LEO's.

There are a few reasons why I think a certain segment of the gun community can't be trusted. The first is that the explosion in firearms interest fueled by video games has created a culture of immaturity that has now mixed with the firearms hobby. I sound like an old man, but in the early 90's and going further back, folks interested in the firearms hobby who spent a lot of time and money on it acted like adults for the most part.

But now I see many gun owners who act like the worst of the drone owners; they fly over other's property taking photos and laughing while buzzing the other guy. If you call them out, you get a profanity laced tirade because they simply believe they can do whatever the heck they want to because....well, just because they want to. I see the same mentality in the gun world now, and it frightens me.

Many folks (all ages, sadly) are treating guns like toys, laughingly running their mouths about blasting people's brains out, tattooing their firearms with death's skull and other pathetic "Kill 'em all!" mentality slogans, logos and images. It's like the sick torture porn trash of the Saw movies has moved into the firearms world and there is a big 8th grade level race to see who can be the most vulgar, violent or shocking, or who can make their guns look the most like something the grim reaper would carry.

I appreciate much of the new blood that is now supporting the NRA, and I think there is a stronger opposition to gun control than ever before, specifically due to the fact that more folks have access to and are using guns. That's the good part.

The bad part is there are so many folks today who simply cannot be taught, will not be taught, do not critically think and associate guns with what they see on TV, the movies or some stupid video game and simply have no place either teaching, selling, carrying, shooting or being around firearms. Period. They have a narcissistic, childish world view that drives them to firearms to get validation and live out fantasies, and they just don't want to bother to "get it" when it comes to being a grown up with guns. I think that's how things like the above story happen. No one was acting 'the adult' there.

I don't know the specifics of the aforementioned shooting, but if live ammo was being used in a class room and drills were being done, it's not only on the instructor but the shooter and every other doofus in that room to scream "STOP!" when the first live round was observed. It's like the video awhile back of the idiots in a shooting competition going through stages of orange construction nets while another person was downrange tending targets. That simply CANNOT happen. Only fools that are more interested in 'playing' and not paying attention (or taking personal responsibility) create situations like that.

I've been bladed so many times at public ranges, sporting goods stores or gun shops that I simply refuse to patronize them anymore. In an age where every half cocked cluck with a YouTube channel that shoots into jello, denim and wet newspapers thinks he's Wyatt Earp, Dirty Harry, a CSI analyst and an investigative journalist combined, firearms have now become to many (not all, but many) playthings used to make themselves feel like urban ninjas while they cosplay their favorite character from Grand Theft Auto V or Mortal Kombat X. I hear tragic stories like that one and it makes me want to scream "GROW THE EFF UP!" to a large part of the firearms community.

The biggest enemy of the 2nd Amendment is not Pelosi, Reid, Obama or Bloomberg. It's folks in our own house that pull stunts like this, or get themselves shot giving fully automatic Uzi's to little girls or idiots marching into coffee shops with M4's on their back and a thigh holster sporting a 20 round 9mm pistol. We're one Supreme Court justice away from losing a lot and the media is, more than ever, full throttle lying their rearends off about gunowners and firearms. Which is why things like this really, really hurt us all. It's not just a shooting accident, it's a self-inflicted wound on every law abiding, decent gun owner. And things like this just hand them a fully loaded ammo belt to use on us.

Sorry for the long winded rant, but stories like this just slice a chunk out of guts....

Absolutely agree. The fact that this "accident" happened at a gun shop where a gun safety class was being taught just takes away any credibility to the shop or the "instructor" teaching the class. It's a case of the blind leading the blind. I only shoot alone now. I go to my club early weekday mornings, never on weekends. I'd rather shoot alone in 2 feet of snow than with others on a beautiful spring day. Sad to say, but some gun owners are the biggest enemy to gun owners.

 

[scooter123]

I have a problem with that bit about "practicing a malfunction drill". I suspect that someone who had spent too much time on the Net and watching Youtube was trying to demonstrate that he was an "operator" to the class. If the DA in the area has any sense at all he'll be filing charges against this "operator".

This story also demonstrates some very siginicant breakdowns on the part of the Instructor, who should also face charges. First is live ammunition in the classroom. I've been through these classes multiple times because until recently renewing your permit required taking the class again and ammo was stricktly forbidden in the classroom, those with a permit were NOT allowed to carry and everyone had to have a firearm cased or use a rented firearm at the range time after the class. Firearm handling was also NOT permitted in the classroom. Class time was spent covering the applicable laws and specifics on when defensive use of a firearm was legal.

On the range newbies were separated from those renewing their permits and newbies were specifically instructed that in the event of a jam they were to place the handgun on the range bench with the barrel pointed downrange, take 2 steps to the rear, and motion for an instructor. At that time the instructor would then demonstrate how to safely clear a jam with attention being given to trigger finger placement and barrel direction. If any newbie were to be observed doing anything remotely resembling a failure drill they would be immediately be ejected.

Those renewing their permits were granted a bit more trust but everyone was watched closely for any failures in safe protocol and failures were corrected quickly and a bit harshly. Saw one fellow get dressed down for not positioning his case so the barrel was pointing downrange when he went to remove his handgun from the case. I expect doing anything resembling a failure drill would also result in ejection. The range time was intended to provide evidence of proficiency and safe firearms handling and nothing outside of that purview.

 

[Wise_A]

There really isn't, if done correctly.

Bingo!
I do agree with all you've said. Been there. And I surely did not mean everybody. Nor this specific tragedy. My point is, that it is happening. Like most anything it just takes a few with the wrong priorities and lack of the necessary vigilance.

Oh yes. I 100% agree. I can name at least one local gun store ("gun store" is a term of derision) that teaches classes. No lie, they use those projectors and laser-light guns to teach basic marksmanship. They also do classes for the county CCW. Big banners up on their website about how you are a terrible and uneducated shooter and you should only be so fortunate as to have their wonderful instruction available.

Some have shown up with Ring of Fire guns (Jimenez, Bryco, Jennings, etc.) and that's where I draw the line. I tell them they need a better firearm that's going to go bang every time the trigger is pulled and the safety is disengaged and nothing else. Usually I point them to the excellent Canik guns or used Glocks since I know they don't want to invest big bucks. I'll suggest a Hi-Point over a Ring of Fire gun, but not with great enthusiasm

.

I see mostly the other way. Very nice--nicer than I can afford--semiautos conspicuously absent of wear marks or in many cases, lubrication.

I had one guy show up with a Beretta PX4. Shot it very well, but could not reach the safety without two hands. Planned on CCW'ing it.

At the other end of the spectrum, I see jokers bringing .22 target pistols (a loophole that gets closed in September--centerfires only). I have not seen too many people need to re-shoot any portion of our qualifier, but all of them have been using .22s.

There are a few reasons why I think a certain segment of the gun community can't be trusted. The first is that the explosion in firearms interest fueled by video games has created a culture of immaturity that has now mixed with the firearms hobby. I sound like an old man, but in the early 90's and going further back, folks interested in the firearms hobby who spent a lot of time and money on it acted like adults for the most part.

I see a fair amount from younger guys, but I see just as much--if not more--from old shooters.

If I had to pass a judgment, I would say that those interested in IPSC and IDPA, running and gunning and such, have been far more of a problem for me locally. At the same time, I know a couple of them that are literally safe to a fault--recommending SA pistol CCWers to carry in Condition Zero and such.

 

[Lee's Landing Billy]

I am not a CWP instructor. I live and shoot on my own range. One of the best private facilities in our state. I have a dozen or more friends who are CWP instructors and they sharpen their skills here to help their students. I have asked each of the instructors, who have helped 100s of people get CWPs, if they have ever had a student fail to get through the course? They all say they have never had a person fail to get a permit. The state now has permits numbering over 229,000. My number is 1472, issued in 1976. While all knowledge does not flow from this fountain, I would bet everything I have in this world that my instructor friends have passed people that I would not feel comfortable signing my name on their test. The owner was killed in another room and died because of complacency. It had never happened before, so it was unthinkable, and yet he is dead.

 

[Rastoff]

I have a problem with that bit about "practicing a malfunction drill".

Why? Just because someone learns to clear a malfunction doesn't make them a pretender or a wannabe "operator".

On the range newbies were separated from those renewing their permits and newbies were specifically instructed that in the event of a jam they were to place the handgun on the range bench with the barrel pointed downrange, take 2 steps to the rear, and motion for an instructor.

I don't agree with this either. One of the biggest mistakes any instructor can make is assuming someone already knows what they're doing because they have a license already. I always ask if a student has training in malfunction clearance before we go to the range. If they say they have, I then ask what school. If I'm familiar with the school, I will have the student then demonstrate a clearance procedure to me before I allow them to clear a malfunction themselves. Even if they do it correctly, I only allow a student one chance to clear a real malfunction while at the range. If they know what they're doing, they'll do it the first time. If they don't, I'll clear it for them. At no time do they put the gun down. It's better to hold the gun without moving.

They all say they have never had a person fail to get a permit.

...I would bet everything I have in this world that my instructor friends have passed people that I would not feel comfortable signing my name on their test.

In CA the law has no shooting requirement. Sure, we go to the range and we do a bunch of shooting. The sheriff wants us to see it. However, there is no legal requirement. My goal at the range is to see if they can handle the gun safely and send the bullets in the general direction of the target, not to judge them on their marksmanship. Yes, I've passed shooters who completely missed the target from 3 yards. Why? Because it's their constitutional right.

Just requiring the license is an infringement on your right to keep and bear arms. Do you have to take and pass a test before you can exercise your right to free speech?

I believe in the right to keep and bear arms. I believe we are born with this right. I also believe that responsible adults will seek training, but it shouldn't be mandated by the government.

Would I fail a student? Oh yes. There are two ways to leave my class without a certificate. First, have completely unsafe gun handling practices while at the range. No, you don't have to be an expert, but you should be able to handle the gun safely. The second way to fail my class is to act like a complete horses behind. So far, I've never met a gun owner who fits that description. I hope I never do. Oh yeah, there is a third way, score lower than 80% on the written test.

 

[crazyphil]

I hope someone like Ayoob will research and do an article about this
tradgedy. There are, or should be, a ton of instructors who want to
learn from it. All too often someone will come home, take off their
semi auto, drop the mag out, stick the gun in a drawer or somewhere,
and "accidentally" forget that round in the barrel. Then the kid finds the
gun and pulls the trigger. Will the gun fire? Yes, unless it has a mag
safety disconnector. A much better safety is the one between our ears
if we will all just use it.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Practicing malfunction drills? Something has gone entirely wrong here. That is what you teach to someone who needs advanced instruction on operating an autoloader, NOT in a beginner's class. In this country, a classic beginner started off with a single-shot .22 rifle. Repeaters came later, as did handguns and centerfire cartridges. The very idea of endorsing the use of slabside guns by beginners is questionable, although I know that the military does it. The military also is a little more resolute about enforcing safety rules. But to "progress" right through basic safety, through handguns, through repeaters, through centerfire cartridges, through autoloaders to malfunction drills in the first course, probably the first lesson, seems to me to come pretty close to stupid.

I continue to question whether slabside guns are, in general, appropriate for EDC for non-enthusiasts (regular users). I have no question at all about whether they are appropriate for mass instruction of first-time shooters in malfunction drills.

 

[silentflyer]

Unless it's at an indoor range and pointed down range why would anyone ever have a live round in the chamber during a training class? Or outdoor range also for that matter ....

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Unless it's at an indoor range and pointed down range why would anyone ever have a live round in the chamber during a training class? Or outdoor range also for that matter ....

. . . Exactly.

 

[fatcat3]

I am surprised this doesn't happen more often. There is money to be made teaching CC.
I have seen places that take everybody. Some folks are not teachable, and a risk to the class and themselves. This lack of aptitude, if not immediately obvious, will be, before live range time.
To make matters worse some are passed, and out there with loaded firearms.

lest we forget too many " instructors" spend far too much time telling war stories about how bad a../ tactacool they are. ok , if annoying, for a dept. instructor. intolerable if teaching novice who dont know any better.

 

[crazyphil]

Telling a few "war stories" is fine if they are used to illustrate a point.
Too many are a turn off, especially when they are told by one of the
internet commandos. It doesn't take long to tell the difference.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I looked at the photos on the gun shop's website, and there were several of the classroom. A very crowded environment, with a lot of pistols pointed every which way on tables. One photo shows an instructor handling what looks like a training gun, but another shows an instructor with what might be a real pistol (it could be a Glock Sims pistol, hard to tell) with barricade tape run through the chamber. Whole thing looked a little crowded and chaotic to me . . .

 

[SaberOne]

This could not have happened without a staggering level of negligence. I have had more than one instructor at various types of classes tell us that EVERYONE PRESENT is a safety officer, and has the right and duty to call an immediate halt to action. This is why.

I was assigned as an RSO in the Army on several occasionsions and I considered it more dangerous than being on patrol. Often times I had little or no control over the number of untrained students that higher ranking officers placed on the range at any given time. There were two accidental discharges in one day and it was a miracle nobody was hit.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Practicing malfunction drills? Something has gone entirely wrong here. That is what you teach to someone who needs advanced instruction on operating an autoloader, NOT in a beginner's class. r mass instruction of first-time shooters in malfunction drills.

I looked at the photos on the gun shop's website, and there were several of the classroom. A very crowded environment, with a lot of pistols pointed every which way on tables.

Above are the first two things that came to mind.

When I went to "mandatory" training the instructor did the same thing, had everyone jerk out their guns while in the classroom and place on the table in front of them. I cringed. Perhaps I was supposed to feel reassured cuz the paper everyone sighed said to only bring empty guns.

 

[MichiganScott]

When I went to "mandatory" training the instructor did the same thing, had everyone jerk out their guns while in the classroom and place on the table in front of them. I cringed. Perhaps I was supposed to feel reassured cuz the paper everyone sighed said to only bring empty guns.

My club uses club owned guns for the basic classes. Not only do the instructors not have to worry about clearing an Italian WWII milsurp Glisenti when it jams, they also issue carefully counted ammunition only when the students on are the range.

Private firearms are banned. The more advanced techniques are not taught because they are not necessary for the CFL. They are taught using the students carry rig when the student desires to take an advanced course. Sadly, few do.

 

[Rastoff]

Practicing malfunction drills? Something has gone entirely wrong here. That is what you teach to someone who needs advanced instruction on operating an autoloader, NOT in a beginner's class.

This was a CCW class, not a beginners class. Why did you think it was a beginner's class? Did you even read the article?

Since it's a concealed carry class, it's the perfect time to teach malfunction drills. Also, clearing malfunctions is not an advanced technique. Teaching to clear a malfunction while moving for cover would be an advanced technique.

No, the mistake here was not "what" they were teaching, but "how" they were teaching it. They should not have had live rounds in the class room. Out on the range, after proper instruction, live rounds might be used. Definitely not in the class room.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

This was a CCW class, not a beginners class. Why did you think it was a beginner's class? Did you even read the article?

Yes, I read the article. You are right; they called it a CCW class. I probably assumed that it was a beginner's class because they were using live ammo inside. Certainly the person in charge, if there was one, was a beginner. In terms of what I think used to be standard American firearms safety, they were all beginners, or acted like they were.

No, the mistake here was not "what" they were teaching, but "how" they were teaching it. They should not have had live rounds in the class room.

Agreed.

To amplify on my first paragraph, ANYONE in that class who saw someone doing malfunction drills, if that is what they were doing, should have spoken up, live ammo or not. The gun stays in the holster until you're ready to kill something. I have, on one or two occasions, spoken up at social occasions AT A GUN CLUB to remind folks of the safety rules. The only reason I didn't do it once or twice more was that then there was an older retired first sergeant who was faster than I.

To reaffirm the relevance of my comments about the classic progression of firearms training, I believe that it is reasonable to claim that the participants in this cluster**** were ALL (or maybe just nearly all) deficient in training. They pointed guns at something they didn't intend to kill, and failed to treat every gun as loaded. Pretty basic rules, yet these people didn't follow them. Are you sure they weren't beginners?

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

This was a CCW class, not a beginners class. Why did you think it was a beginner's class? Did you even read the article?

I read it.

Article said it was a CCW class. Typically that means getting a carry permit, and there's usually some newbies in such classes.

The handgun carry permit classes around here teach to the lowest common denominator, beginner level. The goal is to keep everyone alive. Obviously that was a fail for this class.

 

[Pointblank2U]

I am wary just going to a public range these days. A lot of people don't know what they are doing.