Feds vs iPhone

How do you know what they would find?

We know how likely the FBI thinks they will find important information on the phone by listening to how they are framing the discussion. The FBI is on record saying they want it opened to give closure to the victims of the attack.

If the FBI thought they were going to find any high value information on this phone they would have done this immediately after the attack or asked the President to intervene.

This is nothing more than the FBI using lingering emotions and fears to fuel their ongoing campaign to have access to the data on any phone provided they have a warrant. What they are not concerned about is anyone else gaining access to your data.
 
I read that, too. I'm thinking these phones ran previous versions of iOS that didn't have the "erase iPhone after 10 failed attempts" feature or the phones in question didn't have that security measure activated (I believe it's turned off by default).

I agree, something is different this time around - would love to know the reason though.

Pete
 
I agree, something is different this time around - would love to know the reason though.

Pete

I'm sure Apple will comment and clarify. It's certainly possible that Apple sees what happened to VW as one of the biggest threats to its survival, so I'll be the first to admit there may be some self-preservation at work here to protect their own corporate communications.
 
Last edited:
I'm mixed on this. I'm all for privacy especially for barriers blocking a potentially invasive and abusive government but I also hate terrorists and pedophiles. Crimes committed, residences entered with a warrant, computers confiscated, hard drives searched. Unless it's an Apple product?

By all this becoming public, we have taught both of these groups that there are places that the law can't physically and legally look.

Seemingly.

I say seemingly because I find it odd that this is being thrashed out in public between a top federal law enforcement agency and a computer manufacturer. Wouldn't this discussion have been better held in private? Wouldn't the DHLS, FBI, and CIA be better off if this need and request were not being discussed and dissected in the news?

So why is this public? Why do we know these details that are being reported? It looks on purpose.

And I question a computer company that has no inside way to get into its own products. If there's a way, I do see the why a computer manufacturer would not want it to be known that there is a way. This public thing again.

So the bottom line is - if what is being reported is actually true, our enemy now knows they can keep data on a device carried in their pocket and if that device is captured, there's no way to get to it. Right?

If this were a movie, I might predict a smokescreen.
 
Everyone is focused on this phone. Didn't these two just waltz through customs from the Mid-East at least a couple of times for one of them.
I believe there was history with one or both that indicated they might be trouble.
Why is everyone worried about the phone AFTER the fact?
Why weren't they stopped BEFORE the fact?
Time to get our heads screwed on straight and get serious about stopping this kind of thing instead of pointing fingers and arguing after its happened.
 
I'm mixed on this. I'm all for privacy especially for barriers blocking a potentially invasive and abusive government but I also hate terrorists and pedophiles. Crimes committed, residences entered with a warrant, computers confiscated, hard drives searched. Unless it's an Apple product?

By all this becoming public, we have taught both of these groups that there are places that the law can't physically and legally look.

Seemingly.

I say seemingly because I find it odd that this is being thrashed out in public between a top federal law enforcement agency and a computer manufacturer. Wouldn't this discussion have been better held in private? Wouldn't the DHLS, FBI, and CIA be better off if this need and request were not being discussed and dissected in the news?

So why is this public? Why do we know these details that are being reported? It looks on purpose.

And I question a computer company that has no inside way to get into its own products. If there's a way, I do see the why a computer manufacturer would not want it to be known that there is a way. This public thing again.

So the bottom line is - if what is being reported is actually true, our enemy now knows they can keep data on a device carried in their pocket and if that device is captured, there's no way to get to it. Right?

If this were a movie, I might predict a smokescreen.

Interesting thoughts.

Regarding Apple not being able to get in to their own product - It's like a safe manufacturer that builds the worlds strongest safe, markets it as such and is successful. Let's imagine it's made of a newly crafted alloy that once molded and cooled, it becomes hundreds of thousands of times harder than diamonds. And now let's imagine the only way to access the safe is by a mechanical combination lock made of the same material, and the combination is set by the user. The FBI could secure the right to see what's inside, but let's assume the person who owned and set the safe combination died. Should the FBI be able to go back to the safe manufacturer and force them via court order to help open the safe?

Regarding criminals using these phones with impunity - does that mean that you and I cannot have such a device just because a criminal might use one? It's similar to gun control arguments whereby it's argued that no one should have the power to protect themselves with an AR15 equipped with a 30-round magazine. Great harm can be done by criminals with either a gun or a phone or both. Stripping our phones of unbreakable encryption would in effect disarm us of of our ability to keep things like political dissent, etc. from being read by the government.

Specifically regarding pedophiles, remember that the ability for a pedophile to keep the contents of their phone private is mirrored by our ability to keep corrupt law enforcement or criminals from putting child pornography on your phone in an attempt to frame you, coerce you, or hold you for ransom.

And you asked why they all didn't settle this in private? Because the NSA can already access you phone. The NSA can install malware to your device over a cellular or wireless network and access your microphone and camera; and, if your phone is turned off they can turn it on. But the FBI isn't the NSA, and they have to work through less covert channels to get information. The NSA is looking to prevent an attack, but the FBI needs legally acquired evidence to be able to prosecute and convict. And the FBI did ask Apple privately. Apple said no, so their only recourse is the court of public opinion and the legal system.

I believe the only way the FBI is going to win this is through SCOTUS or Congress passing a law that sets limits on the level of encryption available to the public. But Congress cannot limit encryption because it's essential for secure commerce.

Secure encryption is the engine that is driving our society forward, and the FBI is delusional to think they can either put the genie back in the bottle, tame the genie, or kill the genie outright.
 
Last edited:
Beyond information security there is a question of the governments ability to force a business or individual to produce a product the business or individual has no interesting in producing.

The government is demanding Apple produce software that can be used to unlock the I-Phone in question along with any other I-Phone. If the government feels a need for that software let them put it up for bid and then let someone build it.

It would be like, in order to keep us all safe and secure, the government demand by the force of law that Smith & Wesson develop and build smart guns. If they want to build them great. If not they should be under no obligation to make that investment in time and resources.

Is that really a power we want to give the government.
 
I doubt if many, if any, of us know and understand exactly what the pros, cons, and legality of whatever's going on here. I fully expect the whole issue will ultimately make it to SCOTUS before it gets settled. Guess we'll have to wait until then. Long before that, I expect the various arguments and technical issues will be microscopically dissected by the news media, which does not necessarily mean that it will be done impartially. At present, at least to me, it seems to be mainly a smokescreen intended to provide some cover for the intelligence agencies, the FBI, INS, and maybe a few higher government personnel.
 
Apple has unlocked phones for the FBI before...so why the problem doing it for them now, with this phone?

Apple unlocked at least 70 iPhones before refusal - NY Daily News

Pete99004

This is why, from your article:

"For all devices running iOS 8 and later versions, Apple will not perform iOS data extractions in response to government search warrants because the files to be extracted are protected by an encryption key that is tied to the user's passcode, which Apple does not possess," Apple said on its privacy website.

It's not clear how many of the estimated 70 iPhones ran the older, less secure operating systems — iOS 7 and under — and how many used the passcode-required ones, which started with iOS 8.


With this feature turned on in settings, a user has 10 tries to enter the correct passcode. On the tenth incorrect attempt the phone auto-erases all data. With 10K possible 4 digit passcodes, a snoop is unlikely to make it past this wall. Apple doesn't record individual phone owners' passcodes and they can be changed as often as the owner cares to.
 
Last edited:
I find it appalling that so many people who oppose government intervention or regulation in so many areas of our life *cough* 2nd Amendment *cough* are so quick to surrender the right to privacy, upon which the right to independent thought hinges...

Replace the phrase "if it saves just one child" with "if it catches just one terrorist" and you see the point. Neither is worth the collective damage done to the basic ideas of freedom.
 
To get in mine, it's currently 2222. When I become wanted by the government, I'll change it to 2580.
 
Random thoughts...

I suppose it is possible but I think highly unlikely this is all an elaborate ruse to trick terrorists into thinking thier iPhones are more secure than they are. I belive the Feds are truely flummoxed.

Apple has a reputation for holding thier secrets tight. The Feds... not so much.

The Feds have supposedly been collecting data for years on every one of our phone calls and text. So they already got all that data from Farook's iPhone number. Obviously that didn't stop the attack, but it should have provided plenty of possible leads.

I grow weary of the Feds telling me that my privacy is a threat to national security, and that I must surrender more freedom for my security. No thanks.
 
While they may or may not have the ability to hack an iPhone, they do have control over the entire infrastructure in between.

I remember the debate over encryption years ago. Can you be compelled to surrender the decryption, or would that be a violation of your right to not incriminate yourself?

Back in the day, they tried to force a key escrow system, where the Feds held the master keys (Clipper chip/skipjack). Wonder if they will try to revive that.

The problem with building back doors into system is that it will be found and exploited by those wish to do harm. Not MIGHT be, but WILL be.

If Apple really has no back door, then there is nothing they can do, regardless of the desires of the FBI. There is a difference between the word CAN'T and WON'T.
 
One: IMHO, The FBI and its 'helpers' have already been in that phone.

Two: IMHO, This is disinformation to keep the other terrorists from going to ground.

Three: Apple has previously 'opened' about 70 individual phones for various Federal Agencys. IMHO, This is totally CYA for all involved.
 
One: IMHO, The FBI and its 'helpers' have already been in that phone.

Two: IMHO, This is disinformation to keep the other terrorists from going to ground.

Three: Apple has previously 'opened' about 70 individual phones for various Federal Agencys. IMHO, This is totally CYA for all involved.

I read today that indeed the previous phones that Apple opened were prior to the new iOS that has the security erase feature (10 tries and it erases the phone). It's also well known, though not publicly stated by Apple, that Apple instituted the security erase feature IN RESPONSE to the fact that it was too easy to brute force your way into their phones.

One thing I find disturbing is that the FBI needs and has needed (the the previous phones they've opened) Apple's help to create and use a brute force program that automates the guessing of the 4-digit passcode. There are 10,000 possible combinations, so supposedly it takes a day or so for the right guess to be found when using the automated hack. So it's the fact that the FBI doesn't have the ability to even create their own automated combination-guessing program that baffles me. All that money and resources spent on state of the art forensics and no one at the FBI saw this coming? This has got to mean that the FBI has a virtually (pun) non-existent technology team.

Apple could cut this short and give the government the middle finger by updating iOS tomorrow to remove the 4-digit passcode and require an 8-digit code like most secure websites whereby you have to use at least one capital letter, a number, and a special character. Then they could remove the auto-erase feature since it's almost impossible to brute force a passcode like that. You'd need access to an NSA or university supercomputer, and even then it might take months to break.

Like someone else already said in this thread, I'm changing my phone passcode from 4-digit to something more secure.

Also it's interesting that since this was the employer's company-provided phone, why didn't they have security admin rights installed? I work for a large corporation, and they subsidize our personal phone costs in exchange for installing admin rights that give them the ability to administer the phone but not view the data outside of their own secure apps they provide us. This allows them to remotely wipe my phone if I lose it, but in sure it also gives them the ability to unlock it.
 
Back
Top