First Revolver (but was it a mistake?)

[Skepsis]

Greetings, all! Seems appropriate that my first post should follow only a couple of days after the purchase of my first S&W M&P. I've been lurking for months ever since falling in love with an older style (and over-priced) Model 10 at a local gunshop. In that time I've been doing my homework and saving my pennies for the next gunshow to come along in hopes of finding a better deal. This past weekend my chance finally came when I found a pre-model 10, 5 screw 5-inch for $275.

Initially everything seemed great - the gun seems in fine condition and the mechanics are a joy to operate. But there was one little thing that my prior research hadn't prepared me for. I got it home and started researching the various markings - 928xxx serial number, BNP stamps all over, a strange sort of broadleaf arrow... well, I'm now concerned that this might not be the gun I'd hoped.

I'm guessing many of you already know where this is heading. If not, long story short it turns out that my revolver was part of the WWII British Lend-Lease program (aka a K200 model), which initially thrilled me (I prefer a gun with some history.) But then I started to read about the whole 38 S&W to 38 Special conversion. I never expected that this gun might not be native to 38 Specials, and it seems there are more than a few horror stories associated the changeover. From what I've read online, these pistols tend to be second-rate at best, or disasterous at worst.

Being as I purchased this gun first and formost to be a shooter, did I botch it up? Obviously the real evidence will be a range report - but that won't be for another week yet, so I'm trying to learn what to expect. Any encouraging words out there, or am I likely back to square one if I'm wanting an older, reliable, and accurate revolver from the Model 10 family?

ps - I've noticed that whenever anyone posts about a new gun, the first reply is almost always "pictures?" Figured I'd stay ahead of the curve, so here you go!

 

[DCWilson]

Is there a letter "S" stamped in front of the serial number? If so, and even if it is separated by a few spaces, that is part of the serial number.

Is the same number stamped on the bottom of the barrel and the back of the cylinder?

A K-frame .38 with an S-prefix serial number well into the 900,000 range ought to be a postwar gun -- say 1947, just to pick a year. Acknowledging up front that I might be wrong, I think by that time the company was well past the .38/200 phase. If so, this ought to be a legitimate .38 Special. I don't understand all the BNP stamps you mention. Perhaps others with a better understanding of wartime and immediate postwar production of the M&P models can step in and address how they might have ended up on the gun.

As an aside, with that serial number the gun probably has the long-throw action. In the short-throw action, which became standard after the stock of pre-war and wartime parts had been used up, the hammer travel is about 1/8" shorter (or maybe a hair more) than it was in prewar revolvers.

There is a chance that gun has been reblued. The presence of shadow and highlight lines around part of the sideplate suggests it has been rounded over just the slightest amount. That often happens when a gun is repolished before refinishing.

It's a nice looking gun. I'll be interested to learn along with you what the experts say.

And welcome to the forum! Others here are more knowledgeable about M&Ps, and they can give you answers less tentative than mine.

 

[Camster]

Is the barrel marked "38 S&W" or "38 S&W Special"?

 

[murphydog]

Hi, and welcome! The photos do show a standard 5" M & P British contract revolver. These came in bright blue, brush blue, and (the vast majority) in Black Magic, similar to Parkerizing. Likewise, most came with smooth walnut stocks; these appear to be aftermarket replacements.

The problem with .38 S & W to Special conversions is the S & W is shorter and wider. Revolvers converted therefore usually have chambers that are long enough and too wide, so cases split on firing. No way to tell how yours will treat .38 Specials, but it is probably prudent to start with light loads. Hope this is helpful.

 

[borntoraisehogs]

I too am interested in some experts advice . But if this piece is safe to shoot and puts them center of mass at 25 yards , my opinion ain't much , but $275.00 is what some grips are getting . Hope you find you did okay . The only thing you can do wrong with these old Smiths is to let them go because you think can always get another 10 , 17,19 ,25, 27 ,28,29 , 57 . They make changes I do not approve of and they didn't bother asking me .I about fell over when I saw the first no pin , no recess N frames . Old is good , even if it just feels that way .

 

[twaits]

I had a Victory that had been converted from 38/200 to 38 spl. It split every case I fired through it so I got rid of it.

 

[DCWilson]

Afterthought

I should have done this before pushing the "send" button on my earlier post.

Enlarging the photo, I see that the barrel says .38 S&W CTG. That means it was not originally chambered for the .38 Special (or .38 S&W SPECIAL CTG, as you would see on the barrel if it had been.)

That means you almost certainly do not have an S prefix to the serial number, and that further means that the gun would have been of wartime manufacture -- early 1942, at a guess, but I don't have good date tables for this available to me.

If the cylinder will chamber a .38 Special round, it has been converted to take the longer (and narrower) ammunition. But if you can't get a .38 Special round all the way in, it has not been converted and is still chambered for .38 S&W.

 

[Skepsis]

Thanks for the initial responses! To clarify as to the markings:

Indeed the barrel is marked 38 S&W CTG on the side, while the small print beneath the barrel is marked 38 Special. I now understand the significance of this inconsistency, although this weekend while purchasing the gun, I didn't (doh!) Also, a 38 Special round will fit all the way in, with a bit of wiggle room to spare.

The serial number has no "S". The butt, barrel, and cylinder all have matching numbers. Inside, and the crane (is that the term?) have a different number, matching each other (C 736 xx).

I'd read that the very earliest K200s indeed had checkered grips, although I've not seen pictures (and these grips don't appear overly old to me.) Also, I think my serial number would make my gun too late to qualify amongst the "earliest" K200s.

 

[cgt4570]

Those grips are common of the type installed by the importer-exporter-converters that shipped so many of these back to the states after WW2. Looks like someone added some kind of medallions. Typically they have none.
They are aftermarket grips and probably come from Cogswell & Harrison or Parker Hale. (the two biggest Brit firms responsible for the modifications of British Victories and pre-Victories). I have a couple sets in my stash.

 

[Combat]

This is an early 38/200 in .38 S&W.These are the correct grips and finish for it.Sn. 818xxx.

 

[mikepriwer]

Alas - the gun has been refinished, as evidenced by the fit of the side
place, and its been rechambered to 38 special. The 38 S&W is a
shorter, but fatter , cartridge, so a 38 special will fit, but be loose
in the chambers, which can lead to case splitting. All of this has been
noted above.

I don't know what, if any, return options you have. If you wanted
a 38 special shooter, this is not the gun for you. If you can return it,
that is what I would do.

If you want a pre-WW2 .38 special, look for something with the
serial number less than 600,000. Or, for a post-WW2 .38 special,
look for a C-series, or D-series serial number.

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[Skepsis]

Sadly, my return options are nil.

I'll see how it performs at the range, but it's looking like I'll have to start fresh and find a new gun. It's a real bummer, but not the end of the world.

 

[rds95991]

Would an option be to find a K frame 38 special cylinder and have it installed? How much would that run?

 

[Skepsis]

Even if possible, it's my understanding that the larger barrel would still impede accuracy.

The range time will tell me a lot. If I'm lucky then it might prove at least a decent short range gun, in which case I could try to resell it in good faith to someone looking for an inexpensive home defender. But if it splits casings or shows any other safety issues, I'll likely need to eat the cost and consider it a lesson learned.

 

[44wheelman]

Is there some reason you can't shoot .38 S&W in it? (Providing you can find some ammo). It should be more accurate in your gun than trying to shoot the specials.

I understand the chamber was cut longer for Specials, but I can't think why it still shouldn't accept the shorter round?

 

[popgun]

Check to see if the serial number on the cylinder matches, sometime they were fited with 38 special cyliners by the company that did the conversion. If not the you can still shoot 38sw in it. It's still a nice S&W, don't be too sad. Under $300.00 is a fair price for a shooter.

 

[Skepsis]

They serial number of the cylinder does match, so I assume it's a converted cylinder rather than a replacement. As I understand it, this would mean the chamber "lip" that meshes where the bullet meets the casing is further forward that it would normally be for a 38 S&W, but all else is the same. Would that be safe to fire? That would certainly provide some additional hope.

 

[clay303]

I have one just about like it and it shoots just fine at about 25ft. That's as far as I have tried it anyway. I was also wondering why you couldn't just use 38 s&w in it if you have trouble with the 38 special? The cyl. was just bored deeper to accept the longer 38 spl. cartridge and not larger. If it is ok to fire 38spl. in a .357, what is the difference in using 38s&w in this gun instead of 38spl.? Can someone explain why this won't work. 38s&w ammo is avialable, just costs more.
Thanks
clay

 

[JSR III]

Clay, if I understand this correctly, the .38 S&W is a shorter and fatter round than the .38 special. When the cylinder is lengthened to accept the longer .38 special, it is bored out at the same diameter for the fatter .38 S&W.

When you shoot a .38 special, since the cylinder diameter is larger, the case expands to fill the larger cylinder chamber and this can cause the case to split.

Since the .38 and the .357 are the same diameter with the .357 merely being longer, they can be shot in the same cylinder with no difficulty.

 

[TACC1]

If you keep this firearm, I see that Old Western Scrounger has
both .38 S&W and .38-200 ammo. Prices seem to be about the same as on GunBroker. Nice looking and nice pic. TACC1