Gonzaga University How Important Is Following The Rules?

[carpriver]

OK, same motivation with you, just curious as to where your thinking is.

We have legal precedents that clearly establish property ownership does not give you the right to violate others civil rights. Anti-Discrimination Laws, Fair Housing Laws etc. I think this principle is clear.



We also have legal precedent that the Courts view individual property/business rights differently than they do corporate rights. I'm thinking of exceptions to worker's comp laws, affirmative action etc.

All the above is a secondary point, but my question to you is does the fact a rule is unconstitutional invalidate it?

It's an interesting and complex issue to me. I get your thoughts on if you are man enough to ignore it, you have to be man enough to deal with the reaction. The other side of the coin is the rule is unconstitutional.

In this case did the court invalidate the school policy of no gun on school property or the ability to enforce their rules? And yes you can sign away you constitutional rights. A person who joins the military suspends most of his rights while on active duty. I have seen active duty military men stand trail in civilian court and then be tried in a military court for the same offense. I have experienced violations of fair labor rule, unsafe work places, forced labor and no not in a combat area but state side in the military; to violate the orders of those in charge would have resulted in loss of pay, loss of rank, and maybe prison time or dishonorable discharge. When you knowingly violate rule, law, or policy you take responsibility. for doing so. When to violate the rules you are no better then the criminal. the difference between the good and the bad is making choices. All choices come with consequences.

 

[therevjay]

I want to be on the kids side, but just can't. They gave their word not to be armed. A bad contract true, but not one they were forced to make.

Now if their choice was "agree to this or go to jail". I'd say "a pledge made under duress is meaningless." Disregard it. But they entered into the agreement freely. Like others have said. "you rolled the dice and lost. Now stop your damn sniveling. Man up and pay up."

 

[S&W45Colt]

In this case did the court invalidate the school policy of no gun on school property or the ability to enforce their rules? And yes you can sign away you constitutional rights. A person who joins the military suspends most of his rights while on active duty. I have seen active duty military men stand trail in civilian court and then be tried in a military court for the same offense. I have experienced violations of fair labor rule, unsafe work places, forced labor and no not in a combat area but state side in the military; to violate the orders of those in charge would have resulted in loss of pay, loss of rank, and maybe prison time or dishonorable discharge. When you knowingly violate rule, law, or policy you take responsibility. for doing so. When to violate the rules you are no better then the criminal. the difference between the good and the bad is making choices. All choices come with consequences.

I really don't see where joining the military equates to going to a yuppie college to get a degree, but hey, we'll just have to think differently on this.

You stated your logic and I appreciate your sharing it!! Thanks for your response! I'm always interested in understanding a man's thinking rather than just judging it by two sentences and a surface view.

 

[kozmic]

Well, I'd rather be defending my son for breaking the no gun rule than suing the university after I buried him because they didn't guarantee his safety. The student broke the rule and must suffer the consequences pure and simple. I'd much rather have an expelled safe child than a dead one with a large money judgment and an " I told you so". I break rules all the time-before I do I weigh the consequence of getting caught vs the benefit gained by breaking the rule and make a value decision. I also understand that I live with the consequences. I'll never tell someone to break a rule-but what I decide to do is my business and nobody elses. I'm a big boy and I'll take any licks that I have to.

It be what it be

Further evidence of your deep thinkingness!

 

[S&W45Colt]

I want to be on the kids side, but just can't. They gave their word not to be armed. A bad contract true, but not one they were forced to make.


Now if their choice was "agree to this or go to jail". I'd say "a pledge made under duress is meaningless." Disregard it.

Interesting point. Free will surrender vs inalienable rights, there's a nice debate in and of itself.

OK, I've taken up too much of this post's time already. I'll try to just monitor the thread and keep my big bazoo closed for the most part anyway, from now on it. Thanks for the excellent debate.

 

[SgtLumpy]

... I break rules all the time...

I use Q-Tips to clean my ears.

And sometimes I don't floss.


Sgt Lumpy

 

[finesse_r]

In this case did the court invalidate the school policy of no gun on school property or the ability to enforce their rules? And yes you can sign away you constitutional rights. A person who joins the military suspends most of his rights while on active duty. I have seen active duty military men stand trail in civilian court and then be tried in a military court for the same offense. I have experienced violations of fair labor rule, unsafe work places, forced labor and no not in a combat area but state side in the military; to violate the orders of those in charge would have resulted in loss of pay, loss of rank, and maybe prison time or dishonorable discharge. When you knowingly violate rule, law, or policy you take responsibility. for doing so. When to violate the rules you are no better then the criminal. the difference between the good and the bad is making choices. All choices come with consequences.

If I consider a rule or law so onerous that I choose to violate it, then I have no obligation to lay down and let others punish me for that choice. In fact I have a duty to defend my choice and my actions to the best of my ability. To do otherwise is to admit I made a bad choice in the first place and that the stupid rule was somehow just. In the end I may pay the price, but I should never do so without doing everything in my legal power to avoid paying such a price.

 

[SgtLumpy]

... In the end I may pay the price, but I should never do so without doing everything in my legal power to avoid paying such a price.

Really? Would you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to go to the US Supreme Court just to continually be told that you can't carry a gun in the dorms?

Why not just change schools. I don't think there are any who have a written rule ALLOWING you to carry in the dorms. There might be.

You could also demand that the medical school teach you law.

You could demand that your state allow you to drive while intoxicated.

You could demand that when you come to visit me, you don't have to remove your shoes at the front door.

I think all three demands would get you the same answer.


How would you feel if another parent/student demanded that you (the gun carrier) NOT be allowed to carry a gun but instead be required to abide by the contract you entered into?


I think 2+2 should equal FIVE because darn it, I just want it to be and nobody can shove that FOUR stuff down my throat without a fight.


Play by the rules. If you're going to willingly violate them, man up and take the consequences. If you don't like them, move to get them changed. But allow the REST of the people involved to have a voice in that change. Not everyone may see it your way.


Sgt Lumpy

 

[Grayfox]

I agree its a stupid rule. If I were in their place, I would have broken it too.

Because they broke the rule, they came through the incident unharmed. Good for them. I applaud their courage.

HOWEVER they knew and agreed to the rules when they moved in. They willingly and knowingly broke the rule. While the outcome was favorable for them, they need to accept the punishment for breaking the rule.

Its called taking responsibility for one's actions. No matter what the reasoning, no matter what the validation, a person should accept the consequences of their actions.

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of the "Its not my fault!" excuse.

 

[finesse_r]

Really? Would you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to go to the US Supreme Court just to continually be told that you can't carry a gun in the dorms?

Since I don’t have hundreds of thousands to spend on taking something to the supreme court if they would in fact hear it, that would not be an option. Additionally, I don’t have any faith in the supreme court when it comes to rights other than minority rights. I would however consider getting an attorney and suing the university. You really like reaching for extreme examples.

Why not just change schools. I don't think there are any who have a written rule ALLOWING you to carry in the dorms.

That might be an option also, but I would certainly not want to leave in the middle of a semester and under a cloud if that could be avoided.

You could also demand that the medical school teach you law.

This does not even make sense. It is an absurd straw dog.

You could demand that your state allow you to drive while intoxicated.

Another off topic absurd straw dog.

You could demand that when you come to visit me, you don't have to remove your shoes at the front door.

I don’t think I care to visit you. I can however, believe that you require people to remove their shoes before entering your house.

I think all three demands would get you the same answer.

Those are your demands not mine. Make up something and then argue against it is what is know as a straw dog argument. That is a pretty insincere forms of discussion.

How would you feel if another parent/student demanded that you (the gun carrier) NOT be allowed to carry a gun but instead be required to abide by the contract you entered into?

I would feel my actions are none of that parents business and I would ignore them.

I think 2+2 should equal FIVE because darn it, I just want it to be and nobody can shove that FOUR stuff down my throat without a fight.

Good luck with selling that, if you are being forthright, or if being sarcastic it is the weakest of all the above straw dogs.

Play by the rules. If you're going to willingly violate them, man up and take the consequences. If you don't like them, move to get them changed. But allow the REST of the people involved to have a voice in that change. Not everyone may see it your way.Sgt Lumpy

You feel free play by the rules and you feel free to be willing to quickly volunteer to take the consequences of your actions. I will do what I please and when I please as long as I am able. I have my own set of rules that I live by, so living by yours is just not in my plans. I do make an effort to play by rules and laws that are reasonable and that do not endanger me or mine. That is the best I will ever do and to expect me to have the nerve to choose my judgment over that of others, and to then expect me to loose that nerve and lay down and invite punishment for doing what I consider to be right is even more absurd than all the above straw dog arguments.

 

[SgtLumpy]

... I will do what I please and when I please as long as I am able. I have my own set of rules that I live by...

So I gathered.


Sgt Lumpy

 

[Darkenfast]

First thing that a lot of people, both here and elsewhere, have missed that this did not happen on campus It happened in some apartments that are owned or leased by the university. As regards the possession of the weapon, this is properly a landlord/tenant issue. Under local/state laws, is a landlord entitled to prohibit the legal possession of firearms in an rented apartment? Maybe someone from Washington can tell us. I know that this has been an issue elsewhere. The second part of the story is that the campus cops have confiscated the firearm(s). Do these campus cops have the power to do that? Again, maybe someone from there can tell us. I certainly would like to know.

 

[joeintexas]

Although I totally agree it's a bad rule, one should never be voided the ability to defend oneself, however, if you agree to their terms and you totally understand the consequences of breaking those rules then, as stated before, man up, take your lumps. You paid your dime, you takes your chances. No one's decision but your own. Bottom line....I would have done the same thing, then accepted the punishment. That's just me though.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

I use Q-Tips to clean my ears.

And sometimes I don't floss.


Sgt Lumpy

But do you run with scissors???????

 

[Bat Guano]

I believe that it was Thomas Aquinas who said that an unjust law was no law. If it's arbitrary, illogical, and unjust, then it's just another edict "because we can".

See also: Letter to the Editor - Gonzaga University Student Publications: Opinion

 

[Harrison]

This countries citizens have a long history of refusing to follow stupid, dangerous and impractical laws, rules and regulations foisted off on us by various governmental entities. The U.S. instituted and fought a revolution to separate itself from England, because of English laws and regulations with which the people disagreed. Don't loose sight of the fact that just because it is a law or regulation, doesn't make it a good, or even reasonable law or regulation. Just because you are forced to sign a paper, under duress, to abide by that law or regulation doesn't mean you should obey it under all circumstances and situations.

 

[SgtLumpy]

I use Q-Tips to clean my ears.

And sometimes I don't floss.

But do you run with scissors???????

Yes. On the way to cutting the tags off my mattresses.


Sgt Lumpy

 

[deadin]

Nobody has said it is a "good" rule, however it is a rule and there are consequences for not following it. As for the Revolution where enough people agreed that the English laws and rules were not for us and disobeyed them to the point of war, I don't think we are there yet.(Especially over whether or not private property rights can be overthrown.)

 

[walnutred]

While theory is always interesting to discuss you might want to check out the actual collage handbook. http://www.gonzaga.edu/Student+Life...udent-Handbook-FINAL-Document-Interactive.pdf . According to the section on weapons using an item not specifically designed as a weapon as a weapon is banned behavior on campus. So in this particular case if one of the students had picked up a golf club to ward off the attacker they could have fallen under the same disciplinary action.

 

[Smoke]

OK, same motivation with you, just curious as to where your thinking is.

We have legal precedents that clearly establish property ownership does not give you the right to violate others civil rights. Anti-Discrimination Laws, Fair Housing Laws etc. I think this principle is clear.

We also have legal precedent that the Courts view individual property/business rights differently than they do corporate rights. I'm thinking of exceptions to worker's comp laws, affirmative action etc.

All the above is a secondary point, but my question to you is does the fact a rule is unconstitutional invalidate it?

It's an interesting and complex issue to me. I get your thoughts on if you are man enough to ignore it, you have to be man enough to deal with the reaction. The other side of the coin is the rule is unconstitutional.

"gun owner" isn't a protected class and it shouldn't be as such because you choose to join that class or not

All of us, including me, break rules I never claimed to be perfect.

IMO there are two classes of rules/laws the first is laws that are imposed on me from outside with no input on my part. Rules like that I look at, assess the risks, decide if I’m willing to live with the consequences and make my own decision.

The second class is rules (like the rules at Gonzaga) that I agreed to put myself under. Rules like that I’ve already made my decision when I sign the contract or accept the job. No one forced me into that situation and if I have no intention of abiding by the conditions of the contract I signed (and no I’m not under duress) then I shouldn’t sign it.

I also believe in the principle of Karma and if I refuse to respect your right to make the rules on your property then I shouldn’t expect the same respect in return.

As for the University taking responsibility for the student’s safety, I’m not sure I want to go down that road either because it ends with me being forced into wearing protective head gear and pads to go to the bathroom and only being allowed to eat cold food off a paper plate for my own safety.

The way I see it the University offered the student a choice (actually the same choice I offer my kids) you can live here and abide by the rule we set or you can make other arrangements more suited to you.

I wouldn’t agree with the University letting the students move in and then saying “oh by the way.” But that isn’t what happened, the kids were presented with the facts, reviewed their options and made a choice to break the rules and in doing so accepted the implied risk of expulsion.