Hand loading your self defense ammo?

[springer99]

Ok, as the OP'er I shouldn't be going off topic on my own thread but this one puzzles me. Why couldn't a lawyer use the case that you pulled into the local guns store and bought a box of Critical Defense hollow point man killers and couldn't wait to give them a try. Doesn't make any sense to me.

Dang, you guys above beat me to it

YES, we have a winner. Now go back to post #8 and start with that.

 

[bluetopper]

If you loaded a name brand jacketed bullet HP or FMJ and had to use it, I don't think any agency would suspect it was handloaded.

 

[flyrobb]

YES, we have a winner. Now go back to post #8 and start with that.

Maybe all the way back to post #1.

 

[Duckford]

Also keep in mind the nature of the legal system in the United States. Lawyers are not paid to do justice, they are paid to serve a client in civil matters, and are part of the adversarial system of law in criminal aspects. Prosecuto0rs aren't hired to do justice, they are there to press charges and make them stick at all costs. Lawyers for the plaintiff in civil court aren't there to do justice, they are there to win big bucks. That's just the way American law is.

If you use non expanding bullets, the opposing lawyer will mention how they are intended to punch deep into the flesh, intending to kill. What sounds worse than Full Metal Jacket? You used wad cutters? Why, you were carelessly punching holes through a living human being like he were a piece of target paper! Use a semi jacketed soft point, you were using hunting ammunition, because you were hunting other people! You use a cudgel to defend yourself, you savagely beat him to death for fun. You kill a man with a beanbag shotgun, you intended for him to linger and suffer. If you don't call for an ambulance, its proof you wanted him dead; if you do call for an ambulance, it was a cold calculated move on your part to appear sympathetic to get away with the perfect murder.

In the US system of law, everything you do will be used against you by someone twisting it into something its not. If you think you are clever by changing the proper ways of doing things to avoid this, you will gain nothing and have your actions still turned against you. Catch 22.

 

[rwsmith]

I feel good....

I feel good making SD ammo for all of my hand guns (and rifle but not for SD.

For 9mm. 125 grain JHP XTP or Gold Dot loaded hot

For .38 plus p I found a Sierra book with loads plus p that goes WAY over most books. I tried just starting loads in that category and found them to be so impressive that I didn't want to go any higher and actually dropped them back some, but still hotter than any max +P load in any book.

.357 is interesting. I use bottom end .357 loads with a 140 gr. JHP so that I can fire it in the house w/o blowing our ears out.


Now for practice I can simulate these loads with cast bullets and practice for a lot less money than the real thing.

As for the law, I live in SC and they pretty much don't care what ammo takes out an intruder or an attacker.

 

[tops]

6) other stuff .... shoot things with the load. Know what it can and can't do against car doors, critters, engine blocks, drywall, glass, wood, wedding cake, and anything else that you can give a heavy metal injection to without going to jail. You will rather know today when it will fail, than find out when you need it.

Very good advice for reloads and factory loads. Larry

 

[Nix45]

If I carry a handgun for self-defense, it is probably loaded with reloads. I like the ammo I make: it has been reliable and consistent. I mess around with different powders and loads because that is the fun of hand loading for me. So odds are better than not that I have a new-ish load in my carry gun at any given time. I suppose eventually I'll settle on something I like and stick with.

I don't load 9mm Parabellum, so those would be factory loads, but I don't carry a 9mm much anymore.

 

[lrrifleman]

This has proven to be an interesting thread which has prompted me to evaluate my SD rounds versus my handloads. I tend to reload first to make the most ACCURATE ammo for any of my particular firearms, then to reduce the cost of shooting. In 95% of my handgun shooting, I am focusing on match distances of 25 or 50 yards, well beyond self defense range. If I am loading for handgun hunting, I am looking for both performance and accuracy.

For SD, I will be carrying either a 45, a 9mm, a 38 Special, or a 380, depending on the prevailing circumstances. Using the handgun hunting philosophy of using the largest bullet metplat possible to inflict incapacitating shock, that would apply to only the 38, for matters of reliable feeding.

Having reloaded for over 30 years, I am comfortable with the reliability of the ammo I have produced, especially since I have never experienced a misfire or squib load. That being said, I doubt that I want my first misfire to occur in a life and death SD situation. That is when I want my survivors to be able to turn to a producer should I perish using their product.

 

[rwsmith]

Target , General purpose and SD

This has proven to be an interesting thread which has prompted me to evaluate my SD rounds versus my handloads. I tend to reload first to make the most ACCURATE ammo for any of my particular firearms, then to reduce the cost of shooting. In 95% of my handgun shooting, I am focusing on match distances of 25 or 50 yards, well beyond self defense range. If I am loading for handgun hunting, I am looking for both performance and accuracy.

For SD, I will be carrying either a 45, a 9mm, a 38 Special, or a 380, depending on the prevailing circumstances. Using the handgun hunting philosophy of using the largest bullet metplat possible to inflict incapacitating shock, that would apply to only the 38, for matters of reliable feeding.

Having reloaded for over 30 years, I am comfortable with the reliability of the ammo I have produced, especially since I have never experienced a misfire or squib load. That being said, I doubt that I want my first misfire to occur in a life and death SD situation. That is when I want my survivors to be able to turn to a producer should I perish using their product.

The target loads are assembled carefully with suitable bullets.

Medium plink or GP loads can be about anything.

I don't anticipate getting in an SD situation beyond short range, like inside of 10 yards. Accuracy, I can get them into a saucer sized pattern by shooting SD style instead of target.

My SD rounds are made to be TOUGH, not accurate. Highest velocity for that barrel but rounds made for indoor use are limited to a super .38 special +P level or similar due to blast.

The bullet will be at least a JHP or preferably a premium XTP, Gold Dot or similar. I don't mind using medium hard cast SWC hollow points. The weight will tend toward the heavier bullets, but I compromise to keep velocity high. Usually between 125 - 158 grain.

The choices I have are 9mm, .38 special and .357. Carrying will be a 9mm or .38 special. Home Defense is any of these plus .357 loaded to a really hot .38 special type load.

Wow, I think that's about it.

 

[jtcarm]

SD practice ammo: I'd say pick a load that best simulates your factory SD load: same bullet weight, style, velocity, recoil.

You can substitute an inexpensive bullet in the hand load, but: If the factory bullet and brass are available as components, and you're carrying a semi-auto, I would load enough to ensure reliable feeding. Even one FTF in 500 is too many. If the bullet isn't available, pick the closest you can find and load to the same length.

 

[BC38]

FWIW, for me, the best approach seems to be to pick and carry factory loads as my SD ammo and handload as close to them as possible to that for practice loads.

Like others have said, I don't want to be trying to explain or justify the ballistics of my handloads to a jury. At least with factory ammo I won't be expected to do that.

As others have also said, the lawyers are going to paint anything you do in a negative light, no sense giving them one MORE thing to try to prove you did something wrong - like load up some kind of hot "killer" ammo.

 

[flyrobb]

I like this train of thought and I am going to start with copying some factory SD best I can. It's easy enough to get Hornady, Speer, etc. HP for loading and testing. Proper COL with the identical (or VERY close) bullet weight, as you mention, would seem critical. As I mentioned before, I will start with this approach and then decide whether to actually carry my hand loads.

Thanks to the last several posters for getting back on track with the original intent of the thread.

That said, the legal side of the debate is interesting I just didn't want "drift" to far in that area because I know it has been discussed many times in the past.

Great stuff and lots to keep the brain and press working!

SD practice ammo: I'd say pick a load that best simulates your factory SD load: same bullet weight, style, velocity, recoil.

You can substitute an inexpensive bullet in the hand load, but: If the factory bullet and brass are available as components, and you're carrying a semi-auto, I would load enough to ensure reliable feeding. Even one FTF in 500 is too many. If the bullet isn't available, pick the closest you can find and load to the same length.

BC38, FWIW, for me, the best approach seems to be to pick and carry factory loads as my SD ammo and handload as close to them as possible to that for practice loads.

(I still can't get the multi-quote function to work??)

 

[Kframerbluvr]

I carry factory loaded ammunition designed for self-defense in my carry guns. That being said, I inspect every round before it goes into a cylinder or magazine. Defects do happen.
My practice ammo (except for my issued Glock 23) is reloaded by me.
I load in 100 to 200 round batches with a old Pacific single state press. 99.9 percent of them go bang.
I could probably produce SD ammo for my own use that would meet or exceed the quality of factory ammo. To me, it isn't worth the time. YMMV.

 

[mstem]

I used to reload my & my wife's carry ammo. I stopped & started buying both of us ammo. Not because of reliability, I have no concerns what so ever with ammo I load. I did it because of these crazy Commonwealth Attorneys in some areas of VA. I've heard horror stories about them accusing people of using "hot reloaded hollow points designed to kill" in carry guns after shootings. Just one less thing to worry about.

 

[rwsmith]

I do reload SD cartridges.

I tailor each load to the gun they are being used in. My .357 loads for inside the house are really low end. The loads for my J frame .38 are as hot as I can shoot them consistently. The same goes for different sizes/weights of 9mm pistol. I make them so I can practice with a load of similar velocity and recoil, but with a cheaper bullet. I wouldn't kick using proper factory ammo, but I can do the same job a lot cheaper.

 

[IAM Rand]

I would not reload my carry ammo. If something happens and the bullet goes through the intended target and hits someone or something else the finger can always be pointed to the ammo manufacturer. Theory of deep pockets. I carry for work and use what they give me. If I carried for personal I would reload to factory specs for training but, still carry factory. If I was the lady in Texas that was convicted for having hollow points I would sue my attorney and get a new trial for ineffective council. That is absolutely stupid. Was this the only liberal prosecutor in Texas. Hollow point stops the fight faster and less chance of going through bad guy and into someone else.

 

[mtgianni]

It's been a couple of years since I quit giving the Texas CHL classes. The Texas DPS advised against using hand loads in your carry gun. The reasoning was that a lawyer could use the case that you whipped up these man killers and just couldn't wait to give them a try. Any way when the cost of ammo is considered it's a small % of the total. I use a hand load that shoots to the same point of impact as my carry ammo.

I watched live court coverage of a trial in George Town Texas where they used the fact that a mans wife used hollow points proved that she intended to kill him. Despite a restraining order he kicked her door in and was hitting her when she shot and killed him. The jury did not buy it but still you never know this day and sage! Geo. T.

If I understand correctly a Texas DA tried a woman for murder/manslaughter after a shooting in which someone with a RO against them kicked the door sown and was hitting her? I can't imagine a DA getting re-elected under those circumstances in any state of the Union let alone getting as far as a jury trial. Was this a civil matter from the dead persons extended family? I see no benefit if the wife did the shooting.

 

[Vortec MAX]

My reloading goals for pistol were two-fold. First, I wanted to find loads using different powders that were close in velocity and energy to factory target/plinking loads. I usually end up settling on good target loads that fall under the energy and velocity of factory ammo, and are more pleasant to shoot a lot of. Second, I try to find loads that duplicate the energy and velocity of the best defense loads. Not that I want to use them for defense, but I want to have the data in a pile in case someday I have no other choice. I usually use XTPs because they are readily available and generally a very high quality product. I try to keep 500 XTPs on hand for each caliber for that day when I may have to make my own.

I usually carry Federal HSTs in my defense pistols, but in 380, the XTPs seem to be top performers. I still buy those already loaded. I think you could potentially get yourself in a tough spot if you loaded your handloads hotter than is readily available, or used something exotic, even if it was a factory round. I don't think there would be much to say if your handloads did not outperform factory ammunition in terms of velocity or energy. I play it safe though.

Luckily, I think our local law enforcement also uses HSTs, so I could point to that as what reasonable and well informed persons choose for self defense.

Mike

 

[silentflyer]

Remember it's a lawyers job to take black and white and make it gray. I was called for possible jury duty once some years ago in a case where a man had shot his wife. in the jury selection process I was ask was I familiar with firearms, after my yes reply it advanced to handguns specifically. When I replied yes, the defense lawyer immediately ask the judge to strike me from the jury pool. I later found out his argument for innocence for his client after the gun discharged "accidentally", sort real of a reach for an older 1911 with all the safeties they have.

 

[Groo01]

Groo here
I guess I am "very" old school.
I would carry my loads "if" there was not a factory load that fit the
conditions.
I don't shoot factory at the range except to check sights/function.
Factory is loaded to a constant so "if it did work, it will work"
I DO NOT shoot full power to practice except in the lesser
cartridges. , 32, 38,357[in larger frame guns.
Practice is just that "practice" heavy loads [SD anyway] are not needed
nor wanted.
Grip, sight picture,trigger control etc are what you are after.
The heaver the load the faster you wear out and that screws
up your "practice"
The revolver can shoot "mouse fart" loads so a "few" heavies
can be shot at the end.
Auto rounds have a much smaller range because the load needs to work the slide, so the difference between target and full "whup" is less.
You will react as you have trained regardless of the
lightness or heaviness of a given load,shooting the same place,at the same speed. [ every notice when you shoot both revolvers and autos
that you shoot both at the same speed? ]