Help with identity of Top-break ... Model 3

[Norcal_lover]

One of grandpa’s but sadly he didn’t teach me about them. Can anyone provide basic info? I’m attempting to attach photo.

top-break
Serial number 198xx
.45?
8 inch barrel
Fixed sight

Top inscription reads:
“Smith & Wesson Springfield Mass USA Pat July 10, 60
Jan 17 Feb 17 July 11 65 & Aug xx, 69 Russian Model”

 

[jleiper]

Does it have the pointed or flat trigger? It is near the transition of the hammer activated cylinder stop to the trigger activated stop.
Joe

 

[Norcal_lover]

Thanks. I’ve added an add’l photo to my original post. Flat or pointed trigger? I would say a round trigger. When I pull back the hammer, cylinder advances.

 

[glowe]

It is best identified as a Model 3 Russian, 1st Model, or Old Old Model Russian. Made from 1871 to 1874 and chambered in 44 Russian. There were about 20,000 of this model made under a Russian contract and commercial guns for sale were made in the 44 American serial number range between about 6,000 to 33,000. In that serial number range, about 4700 were sold.

You have a very uncommon revolver, not often encountered in the condition yours appears to be in. Not sure if the nickel is original or not, but the metal looks very clean with sharp edges that hint as original finish. My guess is that the factory did not make very many nickel guns and I would definitely get that one lettered by our Historian, Roy Jinks. It is possible it was sent to an individual, and who knows, maybe your Great-Great-Grandfather!? Great family heirloom.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! Gary, it may be the picture but it appears the "horns" of the barrel latch are plated and also the knurling of the latch. I thought the horns were kept in the white and the knurling was blued. A letter would definitely be worthwhile.

 

[JSR III]

Welcome to the forum. Neat gun. Finish is a question mark to me. It doesn't look like old blue or nickle to me. Almost appears to be gray spray paint on my monitor. Old blue usually turns to a brownish patina and nickle tends to be a combination of shiny plating and patina. It is possible that the nickle went frosty and is appearing as gray on my screen. Love to see it close up or maybe some more close up photos from both sides.

Either way it is a family heirloom and one I would definitely letter. The $75 will be well spent if it shows as being shipped to your grandfather or at least the hardware store in his hometown. You also get the date that it shipped and the original configuration, money well spent.

 

[Norcal_lover]

Thanks for info re top-break model 3

Many thanks for the great information re grandpa’s Model 3! I loved the gun up on his wall 50 years ago and love it now.

I will definitely pay for a “letter” which I assume will tell me where the gun was initially shipped from S&W factory...? And will identify Model details by the serial number?

I’ve attached more pictures. As you see, right side of grip broke. Looking inside handle/grip, it’s gray as SF fog.

Thanks again! You folks are great!

 

[glowe]

Letters are excellent to do a few things. First, the letter will contain all the details about the Model 3 Russian, date range, use, etc. It will tell you if the revolver is a genuine S&W, it will give you all the details on what configuration your Model 3 left the factory with barrel length, original finish, original stocks, caliber, etc. Lastly, it will identify the exact day it was shipped and where it went. Make sure you print some images of the revolver and send with the letter request form.

As for original finish, it does look odd, but I have seen this oxidized color on other antique S&Ws and never sure what happened. With the Ivory stocks, maybe it was a special order and could be silver plate as well??? Most questions will be answered with the letter. There are people out there that are expert at restoring stocks and I am sure someone could use faux ivory to fill in the missing section of the right stock and color it to match the existing ivory. It will make the gun whole again and give the appropriate appearance and feel in the hand. It will also present much better. Some members here may even have a right stock, or old sections of ivory Model 3 ivory stocks??? Good luck and let us know when you receive the letter.

 

[DesmoEd]

I'd be willing to bet that's original nickel. I've seen plenty of old pistols where it gets frosty and dull like that from age and not being cleaned or polished.

Here is an original nickel 1875 Remington I have that is very simular in appearance

 

[JSR III]

I have read before that using Hoppe's to clean a nickel gun can cause that type of frosting. It is also possible that someone tried to clean the gun with some other invasive chemical during its life that caused this appearance. We may never know.

The mere fact that it has survived and come down through your family makes it special in my mind.

Please post the letter details once you get them. In addition to enjoying good gun porn we also like to read the stories.

 

[glowe]

. . . Gary, it may be the picture but it appears the "horns" of the barrel latch are plated and also the knurling of the latch. I thought the horns were kept in the white and the knurling was blued . . .

Guy, sorry for missing the issue you bring up on standard finishes of antique S&Ws. I think that in the early days of the factory, there were several different ways to finish guns.

It would have been logical to think plating of some parts could compromise the operation of the revolver and they should not be plated, but there are many exceptions to that rule out there. I had one example in a tip-up Model 1 1/2 that was lettered as being full plate, including the hammer and trigger. There was another Model 3 in the past that had an original invoice indicating full plate as well. Many plated guns have been shown here over the years with full plate as well, but were not authenticated. My guess is that some were either special ordered that way or some workers at the factory did it and some did not?? It is also known that the factory was very frugal in operations, so maybe someone decided that the case hardened finish was good enough and they could save a few cents per gun if not plated??

The OP's Model 3 has very sharp edges and features for a 150 year-old S&W that has signs of being used, so I am leaning towards original finish, but as you mention the letter might bring some resolution to the question.

 

[murphydog]

Several of the Forum antique experts (on guns, not the people ) have chimed in already, so I will restrict my comments to - cool gun with an even cooler family history!

Here is the letter request form:

http://www.swhistoricalfoundation.com/Letter_request_form.pdf

 

[Norcal_lover]

Oh my. You guys have surpassed my very optimistic hope that I could learn just a little about grandpa’s gun! Again, many thanks!

An aside is that I’m pretty sure grandpa got this one from his brother, a gun collector in Chicago area. And because I have the gun in my hand, I would be shocked if the finish t’wernt original (to say nothing of defending my grandpa’s stewardship of ‘my’ favorite gun).

Ok, I reckon I need to buy a printer and get the request off to the antique gun whisperer, Roy Jinks.

Warm regards,
Pam

 

[S&WsRsweet]

Wow not only do you have one very cool gun your thank you posts are honestly some of the nicest I have ever seen . Please let us know what your letter says as the posts and answers the experts here give are an easy way for those of us who are just starting to learn about true " antique " S&Ws to be educated . You seem to be a gentleman and you will fit in well with the experts here these guys are not only knowledgable they are patient with us newbies .So thanks for posting and as always thanks to the guys who added info it truly helps us all.

 

[model3sw]

Oh my. You guys have surpassed my very optimistic hope that I could learn just a little about grandpa’s gun! Again, many thanks!

An aside is that I’m pretty sure grandpa got this one from his brother, a gun collector in Chicago area. And because I have the gun in my hand, I would be shocked if the finish t’wernt original (to say nothing of defending my grandpa’s stewardship of ‘my’ favorite gun).

Ok, I reckon I need to buy a printer and get the request off to the antique gun whisperer, Roy Jinks.

Warm regards,
Pam

Hi, Pam.

For what it is, it looks nice and it appears "honest" e.g. no one tried to disguise anything about it. In your picture of the close up of the cracked grip/stock I see some numbers on the frame flat (under the grips/stocks). See close up that area from your photo, attached.

Please remove the grips/stocks and take close up photos of both side of the flat area that can only be seen with the grips/stocks off.

Identifying the stampings on the grip frame would help us help you. Albeit, the S&W factory usually stamped the left side of the grip frame (yours shows stamping on the Right side of the grip frame) it is not carved in stone as to one, single, methodology over the decades of the S&W factory service stamps.

It may also be a serial number or assembly number, however, if it is a date stamp, it would likely indicate a S&W factory service date. It is accepted by collectors that a S&W factory service included a refinish along with a mechanical service or could just have been solely a refinish. It is not imperative, but more seen than not, that a factory service included a imprint of a star (*) by the serial number on the butt.

I have also found that other master gunsmiths (of that era, mostly pre WWII) stamped service dates on guns much like old pocket watches wherein you find a series of small inscribed service dates, each by the watchmaker who serviced it. So, while it is likely (if a service date stamp) that it "is" a S&W service date, it is not an "absolute" that it was stamped by S&W, albeit, most likely was.

 

[Norcal_lover]

Hello Sal,
Thank you for your comments re the imprinted characters on the grip. I noticed it as well. Though I don’t trust myself to remove the grips, I also see that the same imprint is on the cylinder. My guess is that both say, “U 99” with some sort of mark between the U and the 99.
More pics attached! Thanks!
Pam

 

[1891SingleShot]

It would have been logical to think plating of some parts could compromise the operation of the revolver and they should not be plated, but there are many exceptions to that rule out there. I had one example in a tip-up Model 1 1/2 that was lettered as being full plate, including the hammer and trigger. There was another Model 3 in the past that had an original invoice indicating full plate as well. Many plated guns have been shown here over the years with full plate as well, but were not authenticated. My guess is that some were either special ordered that way or some workers at the factory did it and some did not??

So are you saying that some Smith & Wessons actually left the factory completely plated? Trigger, trigger guard, hammer and latch included? I don't believe I have ever heard that before. I've always been told that the first sign of a re-plate is all parts are nickel or blue.

 

[glowe]

How many S&Ws were full plate is anybody's guess, but probably not many. The old statement that we should never say never when it comes to S&W often comes to mind while reading the wealth of information shared on this Forum.

Joe (jleiper) has posted about the number of Model 3, 2nd Russians out there that were full plate. I hope he catches this thread and comments on these few nickel Model 3 Russians.

My 2nd Model was in the allotted block and shipped to M.W. Robinson specifically for delivery to H@G in a 130 pistol shipment.
An interesting footnote about my letter was that of the 130 pistols shipped 110 were blued and only 20 were done in "full plate"

Here is another thread about full plate S&Ws. http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-an...-american-lettered.html?467161=#post139786724 I tend to think we quickly dismiss full plate guns and they may have been ordered from the factory that way. I am not even sure if a letter will tell you exactly how the revolver left the factory?

 

[model3sw]

Hello Sal,
Thank you for your comments re the imprinted characters on the grip. I noticed it as well. Though I don’t trust myself to remove the grips, I also see that the same imprint is on the cylinder. My guess is that both say, “U 99” with some sort of mark between the U and the 99.
More pics attached! Thanks!
Pam

Hi, Pam.

That is likely the (or part of) the "Assembly number" which should match, exactly, the assembly number / marks on the face of the cylinder, the underside of the latch, and the barrel. The barrel number in the deep recess at the very rear of the barrel, visible only with gun open and the latch raised, looking into the recess(es). May need a Q-tip to clean in there before it's readable.

I cannot make out exactly the grip frame stamp as when I enlarge the digital images you supplied and they "pixel" out before I can get a good "read" on them.

Should your curiosity be satisfied at this point, you can stop, however, a much closer look is needed if you truly want to know. Take a 10x power (or higher) magnifier to examine again and report back to us.

Assembly numbers usually consist of a combination of one letter and one number or a combination of 3 alpha-numeric characters which sometime include a punch mark (period) either in-between or "as" one of those digits.

If all assembly numbers / markings match, exactly, that means you have all the original parts, as manufactured back in the early 1870s.

After that, I cannot make a definitive judgement call one way or the other if the finish is original or a quality refinish but ... at a glance ... it looks OK. As other members noted the lines are straight, the edges are sharp (these are good things, LOL).

All the best, Sal

 

[JSR III]

I may be wrong, I thought that I was wrong once before but I was mistaken, but my old eyes almost seem to see U 799 as the mark on cylinder and frame butt. Normally the guns that I have observed (and that is a small sampling compared to the antique experts here) it is a letter and one or two numbers, not three.

It is possible that someone chose to use three numbers to use as assembly numbers but it also may just be a misread by my old eyes.

Pam, stock removal is not impossible but should be done very carefully. Usually, the older the gun, the harder they may be to remove. Years of accumulated gunk can almost glue them in place. The other major stock destroyer is the locator pin. If you do not remove the stock straight up from the frame and off the pin but push them at the top in an angle to the butt, the locator pin can crack or break the stock or cause a huge chip.

The key is to loosen the stock screw except maybe the last thread and then gently tap on the screw head driving the opposing panel downward. Place a soft cloth below to catch the stock. Once the one panel is removed, turn the gun over and gently tap on the inside of the remaining panel through the opening in the frame. It too should drop to the cloth. Once the panels are removed, clean the gunk from the frame and apply a coat of Renaissance Wax so sticking in the future will not be a problem. Probably wouldn't hurt to clean any residue from the panels as well.

If stocks seem to be stuck and won't budge, try gently heating them and the frame with a hair dryer. Many times a little heat will break the gunk bond and facilitate their removal.

Hope that helps.