How about a S&W M&P 10mm?

[Fastbolt]

Guess it's about time for this wish topic to resurface again ...

Believe it or not, there are some 10mm enthusiasts working at S&W. They'd like to see another 10mm made by S&W, too.

I've asked about the potential for a 10mm in either the SW1911 line or the M&P line (in the .45 frame/slide size). I'd not hold my breath.

While some company folks would like to see it, there are a couple of immediate problems preventing it from being seriously considered.

First, like it or not, the ammo sales for the 10mm cartridge, as reported by the major commercial ammo companies, is still insufficient to make investing in a new caliber model worthwhile. (Hint. You want them to report more 10mm ammo sales? Buy more 10mm from the big ammo companies so they can report it.)

Yes, I know, someone is bound to offer the names of some of the smaller "custom" ammo companies who have been making 10mm to fill the void left by the big names. They cater to a small group of enthusiasts and aren't able to match the production numbers offered by the big names.

Like it or not, the 10mm remains a viable enthusiast cartridge for non-LE/Gov/Mil ... and a lot of those enthusiasts seem to be more interested in buying components to reload.

Hunters? Sure, except how often does the company make a M610 production run to try and keep up with all the demand, right? And that's a gun that doesn't require any further R&D ... or MAGAZINES (which they can't get produced in sufficient numbers just for their regular calibers).

Secondly - and this probably ought to be the number one reason - they're selling every M&P pistol they can even hope to make in the regular calibers. They're back-ordered farther than they can see. Then, there's the not inconsequential consideration that they're REALLY back-ordered with their magazine vendors, and that's just for what they could use & sell TODAY, if they could get their orders received.

Sometime in the middle 2000's I asked a Glock rep how many .357 models they were selling to LE. He said they didn't give those figures to the LE sales reps ... but that he'd asked around the company on his own and learned they supposedly produced something like 1 pistol chambered in .357 for every 2500 pistols made in other calibers (but he didn't know if that was for each caliber, or combined numbers compared against the 10mm guns). Maybe so. He also mentioned that it was his impression that they sold less 10mm's than .357's.

Dunno. Maybe so. Doesn't really matter to me.

Since I'm a LE Glock armorer, I've only seen a very few G20's.

One was back in the Fall of '90, and it was an early production sample brought around by a Glock rep. He provided Norma ammo so we could try the gun. (He said at that time that the G21 .45 we were all anxious to see wasn't yet ready for production, and was still getting some finishing touches.)

The next one I saw was more than 10 years later, owned & carried by a private citizen.

As much as I think the 10mm never received the appreciation it ought to have received, or wasn't developed to its potential for both heavy hunting loads and reduced bullet weight personal defense loads, I'm not holding my breath to see a 10mm produced in the SW1911 or M&P lines tomorrow.

FWIW, I was told by one of the company's 10mm enthusiasts that I'd see a SW1911 chambered in .40 S&W long before I would a 10mm model (because they had a .40 model in development).

You get the big ammo companies to start making a wider variety of commercially loaded 10mm ammo, AND you folks start buying it by the case, AND the ammo companies start reporting increased sales, then you'll probably get S&W's attention for making a gun to meet that market demand.

P.S. - While you're at it, I'd really like to see the .41 Magnum brought back.

Luck to you.

 

[forrestinmathews]

Those are very interesting feedbacks, but the 357 and 454 were probably shot out of steel framed pistols. Not saying they were, but my guess is they were. In my opinion that makes it a whole new game than shooting out of a polymer handgun. I have not shot a 10mm out of a polymer gun so I can not give you accurate feedback on it, but I have shot it from a steel framed gun and can tell you that it has some snap to it.

Sir the 460XVR is a stainless framed .460 S&W Magnum revolver. The 360 M&P is a scandium framed .357 Magnum revolver. Recoil acceleration and muzzle flip are just about maxed out with this combination.

You are very obviously not an experienced magnum handgunner. The 10mm is not a violent cartridge in a 1911 delta elite, nor is it a terrifying beast unleashed in a G29. I got into the world of magnums with a 3" model 29 in .44 Magnum. I'm not the most experienced in recoil management but I can assure you that was definite start that any 10mm pales in comparison to. The polymer handgun is going to flex a little upon firing. It will not be snappy, but rather a long push.

 

[k20350]

When I read that title It made me feel a little funny downstairs. I want a 10mm M&P more than I want air. S&W make this happen .............. NOW!!!!!!

 

[WR Moore]

Fastbolt brings up a very valid point about factory ammunition. The reason we put the 10mm out to pasture is that we couldn't get anyone to bid on our ammo contract. These were multi-year 7 figure contracts.

 

[forrestinmathews]

Really? That strikes me as odd. I would imagine that someone could do a startup company with two or three tricked out 1050's and make that pan out. Obviously a LE agency would likely not go for this, but it strikes as a great way to keep the weapons running, you could spec the ammo to the hilt and you could easily get reloaded practice/training ammo. I guess it's all where priorities lie and how crazy people are about liability.

 

[Maximumbob54]

I listened to the 10mm hype talk for years. I listened to how it's supposed to be darn near an auto loader .41 magnum, how the recoil is horrendous, how it destroys steel frame 1911's, and more talk. No, it's no .41 magnum; I guess you could stretch the truth and not break it by saying it's knocking on the door but it's not opening that door. Yes, it does recoil quite a bit, but so does a k frame magnum and people got used to that for a really long time. Yes, there have been pictures I've found of Delta Elite 1911's with cracked frames and every single one of them reported they had run a lot of hot ammo through the guns before it happened. I would say at worst that you can't treat them like a bullet hose if you really wanted to say something bad about them. I know none of that stopped me from buying a brand new Delta Elite when Colt brought them back (thank you, Colt) and they a small chunk of my money for one. I plan on buying the 4th gen Glock 10mm at some point. Why? Because I actually have found that I greatly enjoy that caliber and reloading and casting for it has made it even more fun. And if you want to talk woods survival then I'm pretty sure that as quick as you can squeeze the trigger to release steady fire of 180gr to 200gr projectiles in the desired direction of whatever wild creature is attacking you will get the job done if anything is going to get it done. The recoil even in heavy max pressure loads is far more manageable than people make it sound. Is it for everyone? Of course not. But then I hear people cry over a .40 SW having too much recoil. But I would be willing to put money on the table that if more people tried them then they would be far more popular. Not one person yet that's shot my Delta Elite has thought it was too much gun and that was with a 200gr XTP with a max load of 2400 behind it. Sure, that's no Underwood load but it's no slouch either. And I'm not sure if I really feel like 17" of sim test media penetration with about 98% retained weight doesn't sound like a "failure" to me so much as a not perfect score. That Gold Dot went screaming along, made a massive wound channel, and gave awesome penetration with little loss of mass and only the sides peeled back. It seems overly critical to say that's a failure. And I doubt even more it would take much R&D to make one that worked perfect. Probably just close up the HP some like they do on bullets rated for .38 vs. .357. So if S&W is listening, I already gave Colt some money and I would give y'all some too if you would make me a M&P10.

 

[snowman.45]

Those are very interesting feedbacks, but the 357 and 454 were probably shot out of steel framed pistols. Not saying they were, but my guess is they were. In my opinion that makes it a whole new game than shooting out of a polymer handgun. I have not shot a 10mm out of a polymer gun so I can not give you accurate feedback on it, but I have shot it from a steel framed gun and can tell you that it has some snap to it. I carry and shoot .40 on a regular basis own more than one, and can say the 10 mm has more recoil. As stated it would take some engineering to make a good 10 mm in a compact model and make it manageable. that gun would be a handful.

While the difference between shooting a "high recoil" caliber out of a steel or polymer frame may make it seem obvious that there would be more felt recoil in the lighter polymer gun, that does not take the shock absorbing properties of polymer into account. Since your experience is with .40 S&W, make the comparison between steel and polymer recoil signatures in those guns. I find .40 recoil to be somewhat lessened by the polymer frame absorbing the shock, not that .40 has a huge amount of recoil to begin with.
As to your statement that it would take some engineering to make the recoil of a 10mm manageable in a compact handgun, as I stated earlier, it's already been done in the Glock 29. Perhaps you should try one.

 

[Maximumbob54]

Oh, and I'm not sure what to say about the ammo. They release odd caliber rifles that there is no way in heck they sell all that much ammo for them. They also do limited runs of the odd caliber ammo for those guns. I find it strange to say they would need ammo sales to go up before they sold new guns. If anything they would sell more ammo as the guns are sold the same way the micro poly .380 guns slayed the .380 ammo market in a few short months. I agree it will be a long time before they are ever caught up with M&P production. That's the only real non starter I see in this.

 

[Fastbolt]

The 10mm never really made a lot of headway in ammo/bullet design development before its limelight was eclipsed.

The Win 175gr STHP load was probably about the best factory load going. A friend of mine told me that it was the issued qual & off-duty load for authorized off-duty 10mm guns used by some CHP officers years ago (at least when the S&W 3rd gen 10's were still available).

If the major ammo companies were to receive growing demand for enough quantities to make increased 10mm ammo production worth their while, they might tweak some more of their modern hollowpoint bullets to run in their commercial 10mm ammo, giving both hunters & personal defense users something to buy.

The problem is probably going to be the folks who want to "magnumize" their 10's and run really hot-rodded loads. The smaller companies might thrive catering to this niche market, but the big names are probably a bit leery of liability.

I could see them fine-tuning some heavy bullet weight loads for hunters, as well as some lighter weight loads for PD purpose.

I'd think any potential for LE/Gov contracts is probably a bit remote, by now, and even so, any loads offered would probably be made to only meet the standard gel/test conditions used by a lot of LE agency testing.

This would probably mean "de-tuned" loads as far as 10mm aficionados are concerned, and probably not being a lot different than established .40 S&W loadings for LE, so they would achieve similar penetration/expansion/retained weight profiles. Look what happened when the feds were balancing their perceived needs against what they felt would serve those needs in a 10mm cartridge. We got the "fed-lite" load, with a 190gr JHP from one ammo company. The "performance" of that load was easily duplicated by the 180gr .40 S&W.

The big name ammo companies who sell components for handloaders are probably content to make their money by catering to the handloaders. Maybe if they thought there was a real demand for more loaded/commercial ammo ... which wasn't overly hot-rodded and a potential liability problem ... they'd be working to make money off that market. Where's the demand? Easier to sell the components, perhaps. Less liability, at any rate.

Let the gun companies argue with the gun buyers about any problems resulting from handloading, or using custom ammo, right? Dunno, their thinking. Just guessing.

The bottom line is that there isn't any huge cry for 10mm ammo from other than a pretty small niche of enthusiasts.

That's a pity, as more guns are actually being made in the caliber than at any time in the short history of the caliber. Of course, look how some of the 10mm faithful are tweaking the spring rates to try and make the guns work with their favorite hot-rodded handload or custom ammo choice.

As much as I think the 10mm had a lot of potential, I've also come to suspect that it suffered from different expectations on the part of some of the buyers, the gun makers and the major ammo makers.

FWIW, while I'm a long time Magnum revolver shooter, and as a young man was an avid handloader who used handload data found in the Ruger-Only sections of the reloading manuals (since I primarily owned & used Ruger revolvers), I never found the felt recoil to be "magnum-level" in the original G20. Not even when shooting the original Norma ammo. A bit more oomph in the hand than the early G22/23 the same rep brought around at the time he let us try out his G20, but nothing particularly noteworthy. Kind of sproingy (which described both the trigger and the cycling, I thought ).

Of course, I've known any number of LE & non-LE shooters who object to shooting any number of 9, .40 & .45 pistols due to what they feel is harsh recoil.

 

[Sven]

I would like to see an M&P made in 10mm, mainly to see more demand and production of 10mm ammo. But I am a dedicated handloader, so in a sense, it doesn't make that much difference to me. But I'd still like to see more 10mm on the shelves. I picked up 8 boxes of Hornady 180gr XTPs for about the same price as .45 ACPs before te big rush, so they'll last for a while as carry ammo. They're loaded about 100 fps slower than Silvertips. I have no qualms about handloading my carry ammo, either.

I like the 10mm cartridge and the Delta Elite well enough that I sent my Delta to the Colt Custom Shop for their Tactical Package and a few extras. I also missed having a 10 enough to pick up a 1076 at a fair price. I like it plenty, also! The 1076 is replacing my dad's old Security Six as my Jeep gun. I expect a year from now the Delta will be my primary carry pistol.

Long live the 10.

 

[Silversmok3]

Let me start by saying i'd personally love an M&P10.

That being said, its a fools errand for S&W to pursue, and here's why. Beyond Fastbolt's excellent summary below, we have to ask where the 10mm fits in the modern world.

The answer, sadly, is that its a dead cartridge in the role it was designed for. I say that with a 10mm sitting in my safe right now, so don't tell me its because i'm biased against the round.

Back in Jeff Cooper's day, 9mm ammo sucked. JHP designs existed, but as some FBI agents in Florida discovered the hard way they weren't very reliable. One could carry .45 ACP or heavier loads instead, but then you took a major capacity hit. 10mm was intended to bridge the power and capacity gap.

Trouble is,natural technological evolution solved that problem .Reliable +P and +P+ loads are now commercially available in any gun store in America, and in an M&P9 that means 18 rounds of serious firepower. Better, you can shoot standard pressure 9mm for practice which is available in inexpensive quantities.

Compare that with 10mm, which requires a duty-sized gun to shoot easily. In these conceal-carry oriented times the name of the game is light and concealable. Toting a full size M&P10 would be like parallel parking a Cadillac for most people, and an M&P10 Compact would be a stout proposition to shoot. The typical gun owner would wonder why they should punish themselves with hauling a massive pistol or a recoil-happy compact hand cannon when a single stack Shield 9mm stuffed with CorBon +Ps will capably deter Julio Scumbago .

Then we come to the real Achilles' heel, stated above by Fastbolt. 10mm, for millions of Americans, is as unobtanium as ethics in DC. I live in South Dakota, one of the most gun happy states in America. But no gun shop in 200 miles of my home stocks ANY 10mm factory ammo. I know, because I bought the last two boxes of it after calling 5 different places .

"Get a reloading bench". That's exactly the problem. How can S&W sell this gun to the masses when most shooters cannot buy the ammo to feed it? Its like Toyota trying to sell a hydrogen powered car when there's no hydrogen stations to refuel from!

Thus, outside of some asinine AWB 2.0 limiting magazine capacity again,I doubt 10mm will be anything more then it is-a niche cartridge for the cognoscenti.

 

[Maximumbob54]

There is no such thing as a fool's errand in firearms. Is the new .17 WSM a fool's errand when the already new .17 Hornet is faster? Was the .204 Ruger, .338 Federal, or any of the new rifle cartridges fool's errands? There is and are always obscure slower selling calibers that never dominate the market but instead pander to nitch groups. The .41 magnum nitch group is probably about as big in mumbers and yet the .41 magnum is fairly well supported for a nitch group. If anything I always detect a lot of bad mouthing of the 10mm by people that have neither owned one nor shot one and usually know very little about them. Which is where part of the fear and dread comes from from not wanting to try shooting one.

 

[forrestinmathews]

How about if liberty ammo could be persuaded to load their hyper velocity rounds in ten mm? You'd end up with a ultra lightweight frangible that would be clocking around 2000 fps out of the bore. Combine that with a polymer framed gun and you'd have a hikers dream. You'd still have a few heavyweight loads in the gun for bear, but any spare magazines carried would be extremely light.

 

[stunnerable]

Resurrected!

I would rob from homeless people to have an M&P 10mm if I needed to. This is imho the most underrated handgun caliber of all time. I don't get the hang ups at all. It's a high capacity 357mag. What's not to love!!?

Smith & Wesson, PLEASE make this happen! I will sell my Glock 29 tomorrow for it!

 

[Fastbolt]

Still hoping, huh?

Well, maybe Glock's introduction of a longslide 10 Auto for hunting and gaming might generate enough market interest, especially among new owners, to stir S&W to make sure their M&P 45 is sufficiently strong enough to serve as the base to justify robbing some CNC time from the rest of the line.

They'll have to create some leeway with their magazine vendors to get 10mm mags, too. Since the 9/.40/.357 mags are made offshore (MecGar), but the 45. mags are made in the US, my guess would be the US-based company would be asked to expand production.

It would help even more if the major commercial ammo companies could report a surge of interest in loaded 10mm ammo, too, and not just be limited to the niche market of the faithful (meaning handloaders and folks who spend a fortune on 'specialty' loads ).

Haven't heard any rumbles, yet, and the LE rep for our region is a 10mm enthusiast, so you'd think I'd have heard him mention something. Of course, S&W has been getting increasingly better at sitting on new projects in-house ... so, you never know.

 

[indie_rocker]

Resurrected!

I would rob from homeless people to have an M&P 10mm if I needed to. This is imho the most underrated handgun caliber of all time. I don't get the hang ups at all. It's a high capacity 357mag. What's not to love!!?

Smith & Wesson, PLEASE make this happen! I will sell my Glock 29 tomorrow for it!

I would gladly sell my Glock 20 for a M&P in 10mm. I'd probably even be ok with taking a loss on it. Not that I hate Glocks or feel that they make a bad product. The 20 actually ranks high when it comes to price and reliability, which is why I bought it. Had a 10mm Witness C-P before it that I couldn't get rid of fast enough.

 

[BudMan5]

My first post in this long running thread.

The very thought of a long slide 10mm M&P is enough to get my heart pounding, sweat pouring from every gland and my vision, slowly fading..........

wait!

Did I say that out loud?

 

[John R]

If it was offered in the full size, it would be on my must have list as my next purchase. It could never be a compact or sub compact, it would snap your wrist.

Kinda rules out a 10mm Shield.

 

[Fastbolt]

Kinda rules out a 10mm Shield.

They'd have to have a Shield 45 for the originating platform for a 10mm version, in the first place.

They'd also have to make the Shield 10 with replaceable backstraps, so recoil-absorbing compounds could be used.

 

[John R]

M&P 10c would be a handful, I'll let you test fire that bad boy first. Wear a wrist brace for that one. 10 mm needs a hefty recoil spring and heavy slide, with a large frame. That round has a no joking around recoil to it. Some serious engineering would have to go into a reliable compact pistol in 10mm. It would be all steel for sure. Some folks feel the .40 is to much.

Just the girly men.