how concealed is concealed?

mod57

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Ok, this question comes from someone who has never carried, but may decide to. I am unsure how to ask it but I will try to be as clear as possible.
Just how much concealment is actually required? I know. from reading forums such as these that most folks want the ultimate of concealment. Given that, what are the parameters of law? Does it really matter, legally, if your sidearm prints a bit and someone notices or your cover item blows open and the weapon can be seen? All of this assumes that the carrier is doing so in an area where going armed is lawful. Outside of calling attention to yourself, does inadvertent printing make a difference?
Thanks
 
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State Law ......... controls.

For a quick check/reference ...... see Handgunlaw.us

This ^ ^ ^

Missouri has a provision for the brief, open display of a concealed firearm to another, so long as it is not done in an angry or threatening manner. Other states are not so forgiving, to my understanding . . .
 
Moot point

Most states that have concealed/open carry do not care about
so called "Printing". Once you have open carry, it becomes a moot point.
I never got the "Printing" thing anyway. If you bend over,
twist the wrong way reaching for a case of bud in the local
Walmart you are going to print.
Me, I carry under an oversized short sleeved shirt in the summer.
Blackie
 
Reference your state's laws and see what they say. In some cases the state Attorney General may have also published an opinion on the matter. I second the use of handgunlaws.us as a good reference.

Beyond that, it's whatever you're comfortable with. One thing to mention is that most people new to concealed carry will think their gun is obvious, but for the most part it isn't. Most people, in most situations, could probably carry and effectively conceal larger guns than they think they can, with the right gear/clothing combination. I've concealed a Glock 23 and a S&W 3" 65 very well. I EDC a 642 now partly because it's just easier with a smaller, lighter gun and my current choices are limited to the 642 or a Beretta 92FS (which I haven't ruled out carrying...I just don't have the gear for it right now).

While most people won't notice or care, I do prefer to be as discreet about carrying as possible. A little indistinct bulge here or there isn't a big concern. However, I have seen someone carrying under a polo shirt that was so tight I could tell from him printing that he was carrying a subcompact Glock at a glance; that would be a no-no for me.

But again, that's me. Everybody who carries has to work out what their comfort level is, where their balance point between comfort, concealability, security, and accessibility lie.

Just my opinion.
 
Florida used to be tough, even on a momentary exposure. The law was changed, and is more lenient as long as it is not a deliberate exposure. Illinois, my home state, did pretty much the same.

As far as concealment is concerned, you must dress for the part. If you want to be a fashion plate, carry a whistle, not a handgun. If I don't have a suitable cover garment, I pocket-carry. This works for everything from beach shorts to dress slacks. I can use and IWB with an untucked shirt, preferably loose fitting with a pattern. IMO, tucked over a holster is too much trouble, both when dressing and getting at the beast quickly.
 
It depends. Do you live in an environment like I do where it is normal to see a firearm and most people own one? or do you live somewhere like the "state" next door to me where the mere thought of a firearm causes snowflakes to flip out and call 911?
 
Just how much concealment is actually required? ...what are the parameters of law?

I read the IL law and it is vague in it's definition of "concealment". No attempt is made to qualify the term. You would probably get more practical advice in class from the CC instructor.

(430 ILCS 66/) Firearm Concealed Carry Act.
"Concealed firearm" means a loaded or unloaded handgun carried on or about a person completely or mostly concealed from view of the public or on or about a person within a vehicle.

430 ILCS 66/  Firearm Concealed Carry Act.
 
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Good insights and advise from all. Thanks very much. I am moving slowly on the carry issue to make sure it is a viable option for me. With the cost of training here in Illinois I want to get some opinions on the matter from those who do carry.
 
I feel for you I can see Illinois from my front porch but I wouldn't want to live there. I'm thankful that Illinois amended their language on peaceful travel. I spend a lot of time on the Mississippi river and couldn't carry when I crossed into their waters.
 
Consider the other extreme to concealing..."brandishing."

verb...

...wave or flourish (something, especially a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement.

In my case, open display while hunting will not raise an eyebrow. Open display on main street will risk getting my permit yanked. Brandishing ANYWHERE will certainly get my permit yanked.

I don't worry about printing, or accidentally flashing a gun that was obviously intended to be concealed. I can imagine someone being discreetly informed that their concealment wasn't effective, but I think there would have to be a suspicion of intent for it to be brought to the judge's attention.
 
It is advisable to know state requirements, but it also true that people seldom look up from their I phones long enough to see a gun on another person.

If they do see something, they think it is a phone or something.

Your first few days of concealed carry will be jittery, it will go away and no longer even be a consideration if you are reasonably careful.

Also, to be truly trained, you need to do the Wally-Walk as soon as you get your permit.

Rules for the "Wally Walk"

So you got your CHL.

We assumed that you have already chosen a proper holster, mag pouch (or suitable combination of substitutes) and cover garment and played dress-up in front of a mirror a couple of hundred times. But now, it is time to go live in the real world. It is time for you to go to WalMart!

1) You must park your vehicle at least 50 yards from the entrance of a regular WallyWorld (75 yards for a SuperCenter.) As you head for the entrance, you must perform a scan of the area including checking under parked vehicles for BG’s (Bad Guys.) Remember, grandma in an electric wheelchair is not a drive-by threat.

1A). Upon exiting car, surrepititiously adjust sidearm. Now don't touch it again unless your pants are about to fall off. Then tighten your belt

2) You MUST drive the shopping cart. No substitutes are allowed. Negotiating aisles full of screaming kids dropping cans of Chef Boyardee while Mom is on the cell phone and trying the latest Rosie O’Donnell Makeup & Fragrances is a good test of patience and self-control.

3) No quickies! Your stay at WallyWorld must last no less than 45 minutes. You can hang out in automotive and even double check the Rapala lures to see what’s new to kill an allotted rest time of 10 minutes. The rest of the time you must be on the move. An exception is made if you are with your significant other and she goes for the White Sale madness. You must park, wait and be ready to back your mate if things get hairy with the pillow throws or allergenic bedspreads.

4) You are gonna buy stuff so pick items from the top and bottom shelves to test your cover garment. Your mate can assist you and point out any deficiencies. If you are alone and store security or the cops have not arrived by the time you check out, you passed this test.

5) Check out: make sure you choose the busiest register. People will stand in close proximity and you must bear it with patience and avoiding contact. Beware of the people suddenly remembering a forgotten item and sending their mates to fetch it. They usually will brush against you on the way to get it.

6) Meal Time! If your WallyWorld serves Nachos, go ahead and get yourself a big serving of the suckers and wash it down with a Sam’s cola. If McD’s is the choice at the premises, get fries, onion rings, apple pie and a large Coke. ALL MEALS MUST BE CONSUMED ON SITE! No To-Go’s or you will be disqualified.

7) When you leave, repeat the scanning of the parking lot. Remember that now you are also dealing with a shopping cart that rattles like and old train and wants to go right all the time. Do not lose track of your surroundings because of this. If you have a car, open the trunk and introduce all your bags while facing outwards. Pick up Trucks: lower the tailgate and do the same. Keep scanning, you never know where the BG’s might be.

8) REMEMBER: Yellow lights = WallyWorld Security. Red Lights = Cops.

9) - Make test fall on floor in busiest area - near register or anywhere crowded. See if concealment can still be maintained. If you lose that, then return to GO and Do NOT collect $200

10) Restroom break (even if you don't have to go), go through the motions, figure out what your going to do with your gun, while sitting on the commode.

Fifty some years of concealed carry and never discovered yet.
 
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Topics like this make me really appreciate living in Arizona. No permit required for carrying, open carry allowed, loaded guns in cars OK, and defensive display allowed.

13-421 - Justification; defensive display of a firearm; definition

D. For the purposes of this section, "defensive display of a firearm" includes:

1. Verbally informing another person that the person possesses or has available a firearm.

2. Exposing or displaying a firearm in a manner that a reasonable person would understand was meant to protect the person against another's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force or deadly physical force.

3. Placing the person's hand on a firearm while the firearm is contained in a pocket, purse or other means of containment or transport.
 
Consider the other extreme to concealing..."brandishing."

verb...

...wave or flourish (something, especially a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement.

In my case, open display while hunting will not raise an eyebrow. Open display on main street will risk getting my permit yanked. Brandishing ANYWHERE will certainly get my permit yanked.

I don't worry about printing, or accidentally flashing a gun that was obviously intended to be concealed. I can imagine someone being discreetly informed that their concealment wasn't effective, but I think there would have to be a suspicion of intent for it to be brought to the judge's attention.

As a person also in the peoples republic of NY who has CC since 1972 I have seen a few things.

A man with two kids under 5 YO had a gun show when he was at a well know fast food restaurant. It was spotted and cops called.

They took his gun and told him they were notifying the judge.
He did loose his permit but that was years ago but in this area I doubt he ever got it back. (Albany)

My definition of concealed means under most circumstances unless searched or wanded its invisible.

Lets face it in cold weather up here you can carry just about anything, in fact for a experiment I carried a 29 4'' for a couple months. Warmer weather makes things more difficult, but the right gun with the right holster and if your not constantly doing a "adjustment" your good to go.

We were at a big regional fair this week with our 5 YO grandchild and went in the law enforcement exhibit. We were there about 15 minuets, they let him in behind the wheel of a cop car and on a AV and snowmobile. They were 3 deputies, 1 high ranking sheriff and 2 state troopers and my pocket carried LCR was not noticed. We talked with and interacted with all those LEOS. That's the way I like it!:D
 
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Most states that have concealed/open carry do not care about
so called "Printing". Once you have open carry, it becomes a moot point.
I never got the "Printing" thing anyway. If you bend over,
twist the wrong way reaching for a case of bud in the local
Walmart you are going to print.
Me, I carry under an oversized short sleeved shirt in the summer.
Blackie

Not really - what you are describing is an inadvertent exposure which - in some states in thew past - was called "brandishing". Printing is where someone carries concealed, but the outline of the gun is visible in their pocket, of through the cover garment they are wearing.
 
My definition of concealed means under most circumstances unless searched or wanded its invisible.

This is my opinion as well. I travel in TX, and they have somewhat adjusted the law to tolerate printing, but I am not comfortable with it.
 
the factual answers to your question may be obtained by contacting your state and/or local police.
 
Good insights and advise from all. Thanks very much. I am moving slowly on the carry issue to make sure it is a viable option for me. With the cost of training here in Illinois I want to get some opinions on the matter from those who do carry.
Going slowly is good. This is a serious issue and should be undertaken with serious intent.

Cost is a factor, but not the most important factor. Have you had a serious talk with yourself about your ability to kill someone?


Consider the other extreme to concealing..."brandishing."
In CA there is no law concerning a momentary flash of a concealed gun nor is there anything about printing. Neither is there a "brandishing" law.

What we do have is CA Penal Code 417, "Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel."

Note the absence of phrases like "waving around" or anything like that. What is does have is "rude, angry or threatening" and those are extremely vague terms. What's rude to you might not be rude to me.

So, here, printing or an inadvertent and brief display isn't illegal, but it all depends on the person who sees it and how they interpret the display. Therefore, check your own state laws and KNOW what they say.
 
Some really good advice above. So I will only note that one of the really good truisms found above is that you are going to think everyone sees the gun but, in reality, nobody does.

This is my opinion as well. I travel in TX, and they have somewhat adjusted the law to tolerate printing, but I am not comfortable with it.

Texas has open carry now. Printing of a firearm is a non-event if you are licensed to carry. I doubt that this is true in Illinois.

This next item is VERY true and you must think it through:

Cost is a factor, but not the most important factor. Have you had a serious talk with yourself about your ability to kill someone?

Concealment of anything but a full sized revolver or pistol is easy and even those guns can be concealed. I carried an N-frame in a cross draw holster under a light jacket during one cross country driving trip and nobody saw it. Admittedly, it was not supremely comfortable but, OTOH, it was supremely comforting - to paraphrase Clint Smith! :)
 
Texas has open carry now. Printing of a firearm is a non-event if you are licensed to carry.

That is not completely correct. Texas has restrictions on open and concealed carry that are different when it comes to private property. There is what they call "30.06", which forbids CC on the property if properly posted, even if you have a CHL / LTC.
The "30.07" section forbids open carry.

I know a lot of places that post "30.07" signage, but not "30.06". In those cases, you should not be printing / displaying any more than the occasional accident, lest you be invited to leave.

But that is all beside the point to me. I don't want anyone to recognize that I am carrying.
 
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