BigBill
Absent Comrade
This problem could snow ball to other gun manufacturers if the EPA is involved? I hope not.
Huge mistake with new 57!!
- Thread starter GJS
- Start date
ShelbyV8
Member
The problem is not the process but the alloy that use to make the barrel and cylinder. The carbon steel frame and yoke has the normal bluing precess. The EPA has nothing to do with it.
As if I needed another reason to like old blued steel and wood. 
jrm53
Member
In any other business with a problem like this there would be a LARGE page when you open the box telling you not to use this product (Hoppes 9)on this gun, and for good measure after reading the above 40 pages in the directions I would have thought they might have cautioned against drinking the cleaning fluid
Buy an old blue gun, apparently.
This is certainly a confusing situation for all of us. Just like other posts, I've been using Hoppe's #9 for a long, long time on my blue finishes. No problems whatsoever. I do know that it contain ammonia.
Amazon.com : Hoppe's No. 9 Gun Bore Cleaning Solvent, 1-Quart Bottle : Hunting Cleaning And Maintenance Products : Sports & Outdoors@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41s0y2KKx2L.@@AMEPARAM@@41s0y2KKx2L
For whatever reasons (EPA, less expensive finishes = higher profits, reduced resiliency of the newer materials), it appears that some of the newer finishes are just not passing muster.
I'd certainly like to read the follow up from the OP to learn what the S&W evaluation is.
For about two years now (after being advised to do so by a local gunsmith and after receiving the same recommendations after contacting S&W CS), I've been using Hoppe's "Elite" product line (no ammonia) for all of my nickel plated firearms (regardless of the age) and all of the stainless steel finishes. Again, no problems.
Amazon.com: hoppes elite@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/412mKVNNo5L.@@AMEPARAM@@412mKVNNo5L
Note: I'm not promoting Amazon. They do have great prices and the pictures that I need with the associated information for fellow forum members.
Amazon.com : Hoppe's No. 9 Gun Bore Cleaning Solvent, 1-Quart Bottle : Hunting Cleaning And Maintenance Products : Sports & Outdoors@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41s0y2KKx2L.@@AMEPARAM@@41s0y2KKx2L
For whatever reasons (EPA, less expensive finishes = higher profits, reduced resiliency of the newer materials), it appears that some of the newer finishes are just not passing muster.
I'd certainly like to read the follow up from the OP to learn what the S&W evaluation is.
For about two years now (after being advised to do so by a local gunsmith and after receiving the same recommendations after contacting S&W CS), I've been using Hoppe's "Elite" product line (no ammonia) for all of my nickel plated firearms (regardless of the age) and all of the stainless steel finishes. Again, no problems.
Amazon.com: hoppes elite@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/412mKVNNo5L.@@AMEPARAM@@412mKVNNo5L
Note: I'm not promoting Amazon. They do have great prices and the pictures that I need with the associated information for fellow forum members.
bigfreakinrevolver
Member
I use hoppes #9 on my new classics 586 and haven't had any problems yet. I donno if that means anything. Maybe I will switch to elite just in case.
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Jim Watson
Member
One maker of deluxe 1911s recommends you not put anything stronger than WD40 on their guns.
Gunsnwater
Member
With the blue. Those clothes are abrasive. Only use on bores and stainless. Walmart has hoppies elite. It's like a water and soap based cleaner. I don't like it. I guess I'll use it on new blue smiths. EPA has to be brought under control of congress.
During the 1970s Hoppes #9 contained benzene, described on the label as nitro-benzene. Benzene was discovered to be a carcinogen then it was removed from bore solvents including #9. I don't recall when benzene was dropped off the list of ingredients but I think it was gone by the mid-1980s or earlier. The succeeding #9 continued to contain petroleum distillates, kerosene, and ammonia. The benzene fee #9 did not remove leading nearly as well as the older #9 with benzene.
Recently, last spring or summer, in a thread on ammoniated #9 and nickeled guns it was posted that #9 no longer contains ammonia. I went to the store, read a #9 label, and sure enough, ammonia was no longer on the list of contents. I did not buy it and have not tried ammonia free #9.
I had not seen this thread and presumed Hoppes had dropped ammonia because of the persistent belief that ammonia harms nickeled guns. Ammonia is in many bore solvents because it reacts with the copper in the fouling left by jacketed bullets. However, ammonia does not react with nickel and S&W never under plated with copper, so, despite the rumor, ammoniated #9 did not harm nickeled S&W revolvers. I think I now see the reason Hoppes dropped ammonia: whatever process is being passed off as bluing today.
I realize this thread was just drug back out of the archives after being inactive for four months so this question might not be spotted by the OP and others who posted in June, but what vintage of #9 caused the damage to your new blued S&Ws?
Recently, last spring or summer, in a thread on ammoniated #9 and nickeled guns it was posted that #9 no longer contains ammonia. I went to the store, read a #9 label, and sure enough, ammonia was no longer on the list of contents. I did not buy it and have not tried ammonia free #9.
I had not seen this thread and presumed Hoppes had dropped ammonia because of the persistent belief that ammonia harms nickeled guns. Ammonia is in many bore solvents because it reacts with the copper in the fouling left by jacketed bullets. However, ammonia does not react with nickel and S&W never under plated with copper, so, despite the rumor, ammoniated #9 did not harm nickeled S&W revolvers. I think I now see the reason Hoppes dropped ammonia: whatever process is being passed off as bluing today.
I realize this thread was just drug back out of the archives after being inactive for four months so this question might not be spotted by the OP and others who posted in June, but what vintage of #9 caused the damage to your new blued S&Ws?
I just saw this post and wonder If it's legit. I bought a 29 several years ago. When I got the gun home I noticed the crown didn't look right. Some of the bluing was rubbing off around the muzzle too. I sent it back to get the crown fixed. When I got it back it looked like S&W had dropped it on the floor. I called them got another label and sent it back. When I got it back the gun had the most beautiful blue job of any gun I have seen. I put 25 rounds through it and with the thin grips it tore the web of my hand up. I was literally bleeding on the range. I am pretty sure I shot it after they sent it back from rebluing but not positive now. I am almost positive I would have used Hoppes 9 although it could have been some old shooters choice. I haven't shot the gun since. Now I am scared to clean it with Hoppes. I have most recently been cleaning with Tacticoil. I had planned to shoot it again with a shooting glove this time.guess I will hold off until I talk to S&W.
JR
JR
vigil617
US Veteran
I just bought a new Model 48 Classic (the 48-7) and it has a beautiful blued finish from its 2013 manufacturing. I am glad that I found this thread before I ever cleaned it with the Hoppes #9 that I use on all my other guns. I'm sorry GJS and the others of you had the issues with your blued guns and Hoppes #9, and I hope these can be resolved as GJS's was. If there is any silver lining to this cloud, it's that the word is getting out about the potential issues with the bluing process used now, and buyers (and potential buyers) of S&W revolvers are more knowledgeable as a result. Perhaps this thread can even get "sticky" status so the information will be there as other come into the revolver market and use this Forum to research their intended purchases.
Blueduck
Member
"As a rule of thumb, if you would be comfortable applying the solvent of your choice to the finish of your automobile, it will probably be safe for use on your firearm"
So like allergy testing, I'm heading out to my garage to put droplets of various gun cleaners on the trunk lid of my car and wait to see which ones lift the paint...
Thanks for that tip! I tried it and by gosh they are right, Hoppes #9 would NOT have been safe to use on my model ten. Sure glad I did not mess up my gun, that was close!!!
Waywatcher
Member
Whoa, hold up!
Hoppe's does still list Ammonium Hydroxide on the MSDS for Hoppe's #9--straight from their very own website: http://www.hoppes.com/Hoppes/media/Files/MSDS/Hoppes9/msds-no9gunborecleaner.pdf
The S&W revolver manual specifically says not to use "Ammoniated solvents or strong alkaline solvents." Ammonium Hydroxide is both.
Thus, according to S&W, Hoppe's #9 should not be used to clean "any S&W firearm."
at_liberty
Member
How would one ever know this for a fact?
at_liberty
Member
If cylinder gaps have to be fitted, isn't it likely that the cylinder face alone is cold blued and easier to strip?
Waywatcher
Member
No. Cylinder gaps are set by filing the barrel extension.
at_liberty
Member
I recently received a SS gun back from S&W, reworked for cylinder cramp, and the cylinder face had clearly been milled.
Waywatcher
Member
What the H is cylinder cramp?
Cylinders are lathed as part of the manufacturing process and yours might have been found to be out of spec (long in your case.)
In any case, cylinder/barrel gap is indeed set by filing the barrel extension.
at_liberty
Member
Not my term, but if you fire a few cylinders of lead bullets, the cylinder will no longer rotate or open. I now keep a bronze brush handy at the range for another gun with a similar issue with wadcutters.
The S&W order said "excess material".
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