Ain't it the truth!
I need to rant
- Thread starter RobO
- Start date
Ain't it the truth!
bk43
Member
In another life, years ago, I managed our training department. We used to seek out clips like this that skated on the edge and prompted a class to really think through the complexities inherent in a given situation. Rob did that and passes with flying colors. You, not so much.
Bob
Hermann
Member
SO TRUE!
.. and then they wonder why people don´t like ´em ...
38-44HD45
Absent Comrade
Bears repeating, over, and over, and over....Originally posted by RobO:
Sounds like a whole lot of people who swore an oath to uphold the constitution need to actually read it.
smith revolver cop
Member
RobO-
With you 100%. When I look at the debriefing viedo, I see a supervisor that should be immediately demoted and removed from street duties pending his dismissal, and an officer who takes credit for the shot that should be fired. (Yes, even rubber bullets are "shots.") I've got 28+ years on the job, and it's idiots like this that set the rest of us back decades in our "professional" image.
With you 100%. When I look at the debriefing viedo, I see a supervisor that should be immediately demoted and removed from street duties pending his dismissal, and an officer who takes credit for the shot that should be fired. (Yes, even rubber bullets are "shots.") I've got 28+ years on the job, and it's idiots like this that set the rest of us back decades in our "professional" image.
smith revolver cop
Member
Doesn't matter what happened days or hours before or after. Not one little bit. At the time you fire the rubber bullet (or use any force), you have to justify at that very moment why it was necessary, appropriate, legal, justifiable, and (most importantly) ethical. Absolutely no justification existed at that moment. As I've mentioned in discussion posts before, the more "tactical" equipment you put on some cops, especially the younger "hot dogs," the lower their IQ drops.
rundownfid
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Robo;
Your concern at this use of force is laudable. However, as mentioned by others I would like to see more evidence as to the context. For example, the way the video was cut and pasted together the cops in their "after action" video were caught making stupid careless statements. However, notice there was no tape from the protesters, perhaps they were simultaneously crowing about taunting the police and getting them to use excessive force. I don't know, the tape we saw was edited to make the police look bad, and, in my opinion, it did.
Still, it is disturbing that officers, not under stress and in danger, would see that tape and not think your concerns were credible. I don't know where the guilt lies vis a vis the women in the red blazer, but the police need to be at least concerned about excessive force on citizens. Again I applaud your concern.
Your concern at this use of force is laudable. However, as mentioned by others I would like to see more evidence as to the context. For example, the way the video was cut and pasted together the cops in their "after action" video were caught making stupid careless statements. However, notice there was no tape from the protesters, perhaps they were simultaneously crowing about taunting the police and getting them to use excessive force. I don't know, the tape we saw was edited to make the police look bad, and, in my opinion, it did.
Still, it is disturbing that officers, not under stress and in danger, would see that tape and not think your concerns were credible. I don't know where the guilt lies vis a vis the women in the red blazer, but the police need to be at least concerned about excessive force on citizens. Again I applaud your concern.
deralte
US Veteran
RobO, with you 1000%. I was involved with the riots at Ohio State (Columbus,OH) and Kent State during the Vietnam war and have seen the rubber bullets in use and they work quite well including making gonads the size of big apples. In those cases their use was well justified inasmuch as the protestors were throwing molotov cocktails, rocks and anything else they could get their hands on.
feralmerril
Absent Comrade
Got to tell this one on myself. Back in late 1964 or early 1965 I found myself in california broke, no job and no unemployment money. I took my first guard job. Didnt know what a guard was except from cartoons. The guy hired me and sent me out to a small factory that I think was named southern california stationary systems. I relived a old russian guard that night that could bearly speak english. He indicated he wanted to see my shooting iron. I happened to own a colt officers model match and showed it to him. He wasnt wearing a gunbelt so I said wheres yours? He pulled out a colt snub nose out of his back pocket. I pulled out a piece of red handkerchief out of the barrel and said why did you do this? The old russian told me thats to keep rust out of it! Then he left and told me nothing about the job. Early the next morning I heard a commotion at the gate, went out to check and there was a bunch of striker pickets with signs etc! No one had bothered to tell me the company was on strike and being pickited!
Thus was the first night of what was to become my career! I went to universal studios after that and then Lockheed aircraft for the next 35 years.
That first morning with just me against a hundred or more mean strikers was probley one of the most memorable in my 35 years. They got downright personnal with me and I guess I must have insticivley done okay as I didnt get hurt or hurt any of them. But it did get "touchy"!
Thus was the first night of what was to become my career! I went to universal studios after that and then Lockheed aircraft for the next 35 years.
That first morning with just me against a hundred or more mean strikers was probley one of the most memorable in my 35 years. They got downright personnal with me and I guess I must have insticivley done okay as I didnt get hurt or hurt any of them. But it did get "touchy"!
smith revolver cop
Member
There's a world of difference... the protestors are ALLOWED to crow about taunting the police. They can crow all they want. Protected by the First Amendment. The police are required to follow the law and protect the protestors' rights. Are the police held to a higher standard. Yes. Definitely. Absolutely. And quite correctly and necessarily. Their after-action remarks were unprofessional at best. There's no amount of "context" that can make this right.
Rob, thanks for being a good cop. That said, it's MIAMI for Pete's sake. Nobody with any sense goes down there. Last time I was, just after Andrew blew (can I say that?)through, and I took some kind folks down for a "humanitarian" aid trip. Never unarmed and after dark, and no lights 3 weeks after the storm. It's a shiphole (can I say that?) and the cops can't help but be negatively affected by it. Least that's been my limited experience. Joe
Protesters are ALLOWED to crow all they want in a pre-approved area with a permit. They do have rights that go along with this specific area like being heard and seen. When someone like this woman leads a crowd out of a designated area without a permit for a "march", they create a civil disturbance and is illeagal. This is where justification in context COULD be explained. It is not stated, I don't think, whether or not less force had been attemped first which COULD explain escalation to this incident. It is hard to know with the lack of information in this clip as the whole video seems set up to be inflamatory.
Watch the 1:43 mark and see this peaceful protester again. This time with a little context.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7V5-YQih3k
Watch the 1:43 mark and see this peaceful protester again. This time with a little context.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7V5-YQih3k
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
You don't need a permit, you don't need a special location, you are allowed to disturb ... but your rights end where mine begin.
Your new video doesn't show me that she was not peaceful. My point was regarding the attitude of my co-workers, based on the information we had, making no assumptions either way. The attitude that it is ok, and that it is reasonable and necessary to shoot that woman with rubber bullets. I've had to make disorderly conduct arrests before, to "clear the street" in a disturbance. That level of force on someone who was even resisting arrest was never necessary.
Boomy baby, I never arrested another police officer, but I didn't know this was about me. Thank God I never recognized myself in a scenario where I found that to be necessary. If and when it ever happens, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. I'm not making a blanket statement against my department. We have excellent training and hiring standards, in my opinion. In the last 10 years, our department has not lost a dime to a brutality lawsuit. IAD gets about 300-400 complaints a year, most of them unfounded, and most of them are not about excessive force, more like cop's mouths saying something unprofessional in the heat of the moment.
I love the job, I couldn't imagine doing anything else. But I do wish that the us/them attitude was not so prevalent. I wish that we were all a bit more focused on treating people like we want to be treated. And that we should remember that we are not born with a badge, the authority comes with the job, but when it goes away, we could be on the other side of the situation.
I'm a horrible person; and I'm a hypacrite. But I'm trying to be better...
Boomy baby, I never arrested another police officer, but I didn't know this was about me. Thank God I never recognized myself in a scenario where I found that to be necessary. If and when it ever happens, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. I'm not making a blanket statement against my department. We have excellent training and hiring standards, in my opinion. In the last 10 years, our department has not lost a dime to a brutality lawsuit. IAD gets about 300-400 complaints a year, most of them unfounded, and most of them are not about excessive force, more like cop's mouths saying something unprofessional in the heat of the moment.
I love the job, I couldn't imagine doing anything else. But I do wish that the us/them attitude was not so prevalent. I wish that we were all a bit more focused on treating people like we want to be treated. And that we should remember that we are not born with a badge, the authority comes with the job, but when it goes away, we could be on the other side of the situation.
I'm a horrible person; and I'm a hypacrite. But I'm trying to be better...
rundownfid
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Smith Revolver Cop:
Here is some more context;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...mKKc&feature=related
Seems the original protest was in the late 90s? The snippet we saw was being used as propaganda by leftist. Still doesn't excuse the cops from going too far, but does lessen any sympathy for the "peaceful protesters".
Here is some more context;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...mKKc&feature=related
Seems the original protest was in the late 90s? The snippet we saw was being used as propaganda by leftist. Still doesn't excuse the cops from going too far, but does lessen any sympathy for the "peaceful protesters".
Lots of people in that group, with lots of different messages. I'm all for law and order, and some of those protesters were getting out of hand. But that has no connection with the lady in the blazer. You see a guy lighting a fire or throwing a brick, do you shoot the lady 15 yards away from him? If I arrest a drug dealer, do I attempt to stop him, or do I tackle the kids nearby playing basketball?
I'm getting fed up with the federal government, and guess what? I plan on protesting to show my disagreement. I sure don't want some municipal cop gettign his rocks off, thinking that all protests are bad.
The media has failed us, the .gov officials have become an elite class, and no one is listening to the people. Well, we are mad as heck, and we want our country back! WE want to be heard!
I'm getting fed up with the federal government, and guess what? I plan on protesting to show my disagreement. I sure don't want some municipal cop gettign his rocks off, thinking that all protests are bad.
The media has failed us, the .gov officials have become an elite class, and no one is listening to the people. Well, we are mad as heck, and we want our country back! WE want to be heard!
smith revolver cop
Member
Thanks for the additional "context." I watched it with the same frame of mind as if I was watching a video during an investigation of one of my own officers. Yep, there sure were some violent and disorderly rioters. But your video clip only reinforces my opinion of the first clip. It clearly shows a woman holding a sign, walking away from the police, with no weapons, making no theatening movements or actions, being shot in the BACK of the leg. Then, when she is kneeling, being shot in the head. Kneeling, behind a piece of cardboard. Gee, how did that pose a threat to the officers? Look carefully at that scene. The police are on the other side of a wide urban intersection. My guess would be well over 75 feet. Yep, good thing they hit her with those rubber bullets before she ran all 75 feet and waved her cardboard sign at them. Cops f-ed up. If that's how they react to a stressful riot situation, they were either poorly trained, poorly supervised, or overworked and should have been rotated out. Until you show me what the woman in the red suit did, there is no context that will justify the police action.
oldRoger
US Veteran
It would seem to me as an ignorant citizen that it was the height of irresponsibility to use even a less lethal projectile in a head shot, even if there had been provocation. The woman hiding behind her sign could have lost an eye which would have been a trial lawyers dream.
Surely someone has to consider among all the other variable that time and money spend in lawsuits is not available for salaries.
Surely someone has to consider among all the other variable that time and money spend in lawsuits is not available for salaries.
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