I'm horrible with a pistol! advice needed

[Explodingvarmints]

Not exactly like that. I shoot my rifles, muzzle loader, and bow a bit differently than that. Slow and steady pressure while sight picture is maintained and breathing is controlled. Red dot sights on the AR's get me snap shooting a bit more like you describe, though. Thank you for the link. I'll check it out.

So you slowly line up the sights like you were shooting a rifle, and then pull the trigger quickly when it looks JUST RIGHT? That's a guaranteed miss. Sound familiar?

Strongly suggest you take a pistol course with an instructor qualified to teach you how to grip a semi-auto, and especially how to control the trigger. Your choice of targets sucks for learning how to shoot a pistol...later it will be useful. NRA lists courses by geographic area.
NRAInstructors.org - Portal for NRA certified Instructors, NRA Education and Training

 

[Explodingvarmints]

I agree with all the suggestions, especially moving the target closer. Start with a closer target (5 yards) then as you get more confident and comfortable move the target out. Confidence is one of the, if not the most, important factors in accuracy. I see a lot of competitive shooters that miss before they even draw their pistol because they think that's what's going to happen. PMA is the secret (Positive Mental Attitude). Keep at it.

Sounds a lot like golf. If I think I'm going to miss a put, or make a bad drive, i will do exactly that. Every. Dang. Time! You are correct in your assumption of my mindset with the pistol, sir. That's kind of why I've kept my practice sessions to a mag or two only. While I'm not scared of the gun perse, I'm not 100% comfortable with it. That's got to be screwing with my head.....as well as it being freezing cold out. Thank you.

 

[Explodingvarmints]

I tried to answer your questions the best I could below.

The above advice is sound. I'm ready to start typing a bunch to help you get on the right path, but I need a little more info before I start to help focus what I say. Please answer these questions:

Which M&P 9mm to you have specifically?
It is a full size 17 round capacity.
-Thumb safety or not?
Yes. I wanted that additional safety seeing as I am new to pistols.
-Compact or full size?
Full size. It is not a 'C' model.
--If compact, do you have the pinky extension on your mags?
N/A
-Have you made any modifications?
Added a Veridian green laser/light combo to the rail below the barrel. Only practiced dry fire with it after 'rough zeroing' it rested in the house. Wanted to become proficient with the stock sights before relying on the laser. Also, my better halfs eyesight is bad without contacts or glasses so I thought the laser would help her (again, after becoming proficient with it) in low light/high stress home defense scenarios. Hopefully I didn't waste a couple hundred bucks.


Have you never fired a pistol before or is this just the first one you own?
I've shot pistols on a very limited basis. What I have shot are: Kimber 45, a fancy souped up Les something or other 1911 in 45, 9mm S&W non M&P, a couple Ruger revolvers ranging from 38 to some monster 454 or the like, Walther 22, and probably a few I've forgotten about. None were shot in a serious learning environment .... More of a "hey, want to take a few shots with this) kind of thing. Let's guess maybe 10 rounds of the above each over the span of 15 years. No one in my family ever had pistols while I was growing up and never considered getting one.

When shooting Sporting Clays, what do you focus on?
This may sound odd, but I am, and always have been an 'instinctive shooter' when it comes to wing or clay. Let's put it this way, I can never tell someone what to focus on or how far to lead a bird on a European pheasant shoot or on the SC course.....I just hit it more times than not. Both eyes open and keep swinging thru the shot. If I had to guess (and this came up at a European shoot a few weeks ago) I would say that I have well over 15,000 rounds thru my Benelli SBE.

When shooting a rifle with a scope, what do you focus on?
Crosshairs where I want them, trigger squeeze, breathing, be surprised by the shot.


I am certified by the NRA to teach Basic Pistol classes. I also teach self-defense both with a pistol and empty hand. I'm positive that we can get you on target with a little thought and the right practice.

 

[Explodingvarmints]

The first few times I shot I was shooting high left according to the marks/spray from the snow. I can't tell you how my sight alignment was in relation to the target as it seems that it's too far away. Yes, I did try to allign the dots in a horizontal row, though.

I'll bet you are shooting too low. Are you using a sight picture where the 3 dots are lined up horizontally and your intended point of impact is sitting on TOP of the middle dot? 6 o'clock hold. If yes, that's your problem. With a M&P, you will find that the bullet hits where the middle dot is. You should be covering the point of impact with the dot. Tape a big piece of cardboard to the back of your target. That way you can see where your misses are going. If they are all clustered under the bottom of the steel between 5-7 o'clock positions, you are shooting too low.

A miss tells you nothing until you know where it went.

 

[Rastoff]

Thank you, that answers my questions and helps me help you.

First lets talk about grip. This is the basic pistol grip:
With your firing hand, put the back strap in the center of the web between your thumb and fore finger. Then wrap your fingers around the grip with your trigger finger along the frame (Reference Point, more on this later). It should look something like this:

Note that the bore of the gun is in line with the shooting hand forearm. (Yes, I'm a lefty, just use the mirror image if you're right handed.) Get your hand as high as you can in the grip. This will help control recoil. Put your thumb on top of the safety. This will help keep your grip high. It may feel uncomfortable at first, but it will help your shooting in the long run.

Now, bring the support hand up. Put "fingers on fingers" around the shooting hand fingers on the grip and as high as you can. The whole grip should look something like this:

Create some tension by pushing a little with your shooting hand and pulling with your support hand. This will help steady the whole gun and control recoil.

Even as you add this tension, the overall grip is not tight, just firm. Your thumbs should be relaxed and your pinkies should be relaxed. The majority of the grip is done with just the middle and ring finger of your shooting hand. (This is why some people shoot better with a compact grip where the pinky doesn't fit on the grip.)

It's important to note that this is not the "be all, end all" of the grip; it is just the starting point. You may find slight variations that fit you better. I just recommend this when starting out.

Now, let's talk about the "three secrets." They're not really secrets, but it seems like it when you see most people shoot. They are, Sight Alignment, Sight Picture and Trigger control.

Sight Alignment:
Align the top of the front sight with the top of the rear sight. Ignore the dots for the moment. Ensure there is equal daylight in the rear notch on either side of the front sight.

Sight Picture:
Here is the proper sight picture for the M&P-

The front sight should be in clear focus, the rear a little out of focus and the target will be a little blurry. Notice that the top of the front sight is in the middle of the target. This is called a center hold. It is how the M&Ps are set up at the factory. This has been verified by many owners. This will put rounds in the center of the target out to ~15 yards. You may have to hold a little higher at 25 yards.

When shooting, your focus must be on the front sight. Failing to do this will dramatically open your groups up.

Trigger Control:
This is the most important part of shooting a handgun. Without trigger control, the sights/muzzle will be pulled off line and misses are guaranteed.

When the trigger is pressed, it must be smooth and straight back. The only finger that moves is the trigger finger. As you can see in the diagnostic target posted above, moving or tightening of the other fingers will pull the gun off target.

The trigger finger builds pressure until the sear breaks. It should be a surprise break. This is exactly the same way it's done with a rifle. After the sear breaks, trap the trigger back. Then release the trigger smoothly until the trigger resets. Do not take your finger off the trigger. Then, after it passes the reset point, take up the slack again and get set for another press. It's not that you're looking for the reset, just don't let your finger fly off the trigger after the shot. Remember, this is about control.


Now, there is a fourth secret, but this one is so uncommon it must be top secret; follow through.

Follow Through:
After the shot has been fired, re-acquire the sight picture. Stay on target. Use all the fundamentals just discussed above, but don't fire. This should be familiar because of your shotgun experience. After the shot with the shotgun, it is important to keep swinging the gun. The same here, but you're just not moving. So, re-acquire that sight picture just like you're going to shoot again. Those who don't do this, usually give up on the shot early. By developing good follow through, most of the other issues will take care of themselves.


One last thing; Reference Point.
This is not a shooting skill, it's a safety issue. When not ready to shoot, the trigger finger goes along the frame above the trigger. Find a spot on your frame that you can feel with the tip of your finger. Develop a habit of keeping your trigger finger there until you are sighted in on the target. As you can see in my first pictures, it is clear to anyone standing on either side of me that my finger is not on the trigger. This is valuable when shooting with others and by yourself. It helps to reinforce the safety aspect of trigger control.


There is a lot in this post. Even so, it just scratches the surface of shooting a pistol. The NRA Basic Pistol class will go more in depth on what I've talked about here. Sorry, but there are no shortcuts. If you want, I'll go into the dry fire rules in another post.

 

[jimmib]

I took a CCW course yesterday and in the qualifying part I got a tip from the instructor that helped my with my shooting a lot....I would definitely get lessons from a good instructor...the charts will tell you what you are doing wrong but having someone beside you to tell you how to correct it is great

 

[Gunsmart]

Another idea I would suggest is to use paper targets so you know where your misses are going assuming your use a large enough paper target. Steel targets are tough to determine where your misses are going.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

The first thing that I picked up on was your description of the trigger on your pistol. NOBODY my age learned shooting with that kind of trigger. Most folks, after learning to shoot a .22 rifle, and perhaps a CF rifle, would start out with a .22 revolver, or perhaps autoloader. It's bad enough starting with a 9mm or .38 Special, but not insurmountable, by any means. But a bad trigger?

I'm not saying that a defensive pistol has to have a good target trigger, but learning to shoot a pistol with a bad trigger is WAAAY too complicated. Put that thing away until you can shoot well with a target-quality arm. I recommend a K22 revolver or a Ruger auto, unless you have a lot of money, in which case perhaps a Model 41 might be slightly nicer. Equally important, get a copy of Gil Hebard's The Pistol Shooter's Treasury. After you feel comfortable shooting well with a decent trigger, then you can learn to shoot with a poor one. Or maybe by that time you'd rather have a 1911 or some such, with only a decent trigger to contend with.

That's my advice and I'm sticking by it. If you find a police marksmanship instructor who has actual successful experience teaching people to shoot with guns with rotten triggers, by all means listen to him. Otherwise, get a good gun for learning, read the Hebard book, and see whether you can find some competent instruction, although there is at least some chance that the Hebard book will be sufficient.

 

[old&slow]

A good shotgun shooter / sporting clays shooter , picking up a handgun for the first time will usually have some problems with the transition.. Same with a handgun or rifle shooter going to sporting clays.

Dry firing is some of the best practice you can do and it doesn't cost you anything. Safe firearm and safe direction , NO ammo in the area. A blank wall is fine,, work on sight aligment and trigger control. Be able to drop the hammer without moving the front sight.. Learn to call your shots dry firing.
( dry fire about 3 to 5 mins. a day for a week , then try the live ammo again and see if it makes a different, )

Find a handgun shooter / instructor that knows what he is doing,, rather than someone that thinks he knows what he is doing, for personal instruction / training.

( + 1, Rastoff , post #35 = excellent information / instruction )

 

[MrOldtimer]

Practice, practice, practice. Move your target closer to more like 6 to 12 yards the distance that is used for your CPL test. The more range time you get the better you will get. Have fun.

 

[Ranger17]

OP, unless i missed it i'm thinking you are doing your shooting outdoors in the cold/snow. That said, are you shooting with gloves (or a cold bare hand) that can affect your hold?
Or even is your body feeling that same chill, where a steady stance is difficult?

All the years i lived in WI and bowhunted, i could practice all i wanted with thicker clothes, gloves, etc on but those cold am's in the tree stand still had an effect on me.

just thinking out loud on this one...

 

[Explodingvarmints]

I tried with and without gloves. It has been really cold so I've just been sliding the door open in the walk out basement, shoot a mag worth, and go back in to warm up.

OP, unless i missed it i'm thinking you are doing your shooting outdoors in the cold/snow. That said, are you shooting with gloves (or a cold bare hand) that can affect your hold?
Or even is your body feeling that same chill, where a steady stance is difficult? And yes, bowhunting in the cold is rough for sure.

All the years i lived in WI and bowhunted, i could practice all i wanted with thicker clothes, gloves, etc on but those cold am's in the tree stand still had an effect on me.

just thinking out loud on this one...

 

[Explodingvarmints]

Thank you for all the wonderful information. I really think this will help to cut down the learning curve. I'll start with the dryfire and grip practice ASAP. Hopefully I'll get some nicer weather on the weekend for once and can report back with an update.

Thank you all very much.

 

[wittmeba]

ras offers good advice.

This may sound like silly advice but it is not meant to be.

Be sure you know how to use your sights - however you use them and what works right for you.

This is similar to what ras posted...but perhaps a different view.

And this:

What works for me - what works for you and others may be different. I prefer option 2 as I don't want to block any part of my target like option 3.

- look past the end sight at your target
- move your gun to be in align with the target while looking thru the rear sight to the front sight
- keep your focus on the target not the front sight

I don't have optics on any guns I own but can do quite well with open sights.

Practice, practice and more practice. Don't just shoot for the sake of shooting. Place targets at the distance you want and make honest attempts to hit bullseyes. Check after 3-5 shots to how you are doing. Work on consistency, then you may find you need to adjust your sights to your shooting style.

 

[Ranger17]

I tried with and without gloves. It has been really cold so I've just been sliding the door open in the walk out basement, shoot a mag worth, and go back in to warm up.

well only been shooting for a year I hardly can offer a lifetime of knowledge, I just know that when my body gets cold (i left WI for SC in 09 due to winter and now i'm cold down here lol) it is hard to be able to maintain consistant body control when i've tried shooting anything outdoors. Heck i only use the local indoor range here and can find it takes a mag or 2 to get into a good groove (though my aim is solid at the start). Not sure what you have there for indoor options, but that may not be a bad idea -- spend a solid 1/2 hour minimum going thru some mags to see if you can build a better form that you are comfortable with.
just a newbie's .02

 

[Engieman]

Here's a mantra for you....."sight alignment and trigger control." Most if not all of missed shots can be traced to these two things in some way or form. I focus on 'pulling' the front sight through the rear sight while maintaining the correct sight picture. Say it over and over again till the little voices in your head take over......

 

[Rastoff]

You can't say this...

ras offers good advice.

...and then follow with this...

- keep your focus on the target not the front sight

...because the two are mutually exclusive and contrary.

If you don't focus on the front sight, you'll eventually not use the sights at all. Focusing on the front sight is the only way to get really precise shots.

There are ways to get the sights and target in focus, but that requires equipment. Things like a red dot or peep sight will allow that, but it cannot be done with standard combat sights like we see on the M&P.

So, Explodingvarmints, please, keep your focus on the front sight for now. Once you get that down, we can move on to other types of sight pictures.

 

[Sgt 45]

Only problem I see with starting with a .22 is finding ammo for it at a reasonable price and I'm not talking about $65 for a brick of 500 or worse. The Laserlyte is a great help with the 9mm insert and target you can start a 3-5 yards, slowly and your trigger press will show up on the screen. You practice and practice. If your M&P 9 has a rotten trigger, an APEX trigger is not a bad investment. MDFI also has a beginner class coming up very soon, you can check them out at trainmdfi.com.

 

[Rastoff]

Let's talk about this image for a moment:

This is floating around the internet and it gives a false impression.

Sight picture #1 is called the 6 o'clock hold. it is most commonly used by target shooters. It's fine for a gun with adjustable sights that will always be used to shoot at the same target. Bullseye shooters like this because it's easier to put the sight at the bottom of the circle than the center. However, it is not a good combat sight picture because targets are rarely the same size. So, as the size of the circle changes, so will your Point of Impact (POI).

Sight picture #2 is called the center hold. This is how 99% of the handguns on the market today are sighted. With the tops of the sights aligned and the top of the front sight on the center of the target. This is the perfect combat sight picture because the center of the target will always be the center no matter how far away or what the size is.

Sight picture #3 is relatively new to the pistol market and is most often called the combat sight picture. As I type this I only know of one manufacturer that makes combat pistols designed to use this sight picture. The idea here is to line up the dots and put the front sight dot on the target. The graphic above is highly misleading. Here's why:


Look at this picture:

This is an actual picture I took of an M&P. Notice that the dots are not lined up perfectly. Even though they are not, if they were lined up perfectly, the tops of the front and rear sights would not be lined up properly. So, there is a disparity between the dot method and lining up the tops of the sights.

Further, notice that the dots are not the same size like they are in the graphic at the top of this post. The reason for that is that they are actually the same physical size. Therefore, because the front sight is further away, it appears smaller. This is not a camera trick. Look at your own sights and you'll see this is true.

The conclusion to be drawn here is that the dots are not to be used as a sighting device. They are there to help acquire the sight picture quicker, that's all. In fact, misaligning the sights by attempting to line up the dots will actually throw your accuracy off further. It has to do with angles and distance. I'll go into that if this is not clear enough on its own.

If the dots and the top of the sights are both correlated, the actual difference between the two sight pictures would only be fractions of an inch at the target. As I've shown, they are rarely correlated.

 

[old&slow]

Focusing on the front sight is the only way to get really precise shots.

So, Explodingvarmints, please, keep your focus on the front sight for now. Once you get that down, we can move on to other types of sight pictures.

+1 ,,, ( I don't know rastoff, but from the posts I've seen here , he does an excellent job of explaining stuff ,,)

Safety First ,, Then :
You can practice your dry firing at a blank wall.. ( old bullseye practicing method)
All you have to do is focus on the front sight and drop the hammer without moving the front sight.
No targets needed ,, just sight aligment and trigger control.

 

[El Campo]

As has been suggested a class is nice. If you are like me when I first got a pistol its possible you can not find one close enough to you. I had that problem so I got some of the "trainer' targets as mentioned above and it showed me exactly what I was doing wrong. I was consistent but my consistency was in hitting low and to the right. The target SUGGESTED (and no it doesn't know everything for everyone) that I was tightening my grip as I squeezed off rounds. I practiced doing like it said and immediately my shooting improved dramatically. That was with the crappy M&P trigger even. Then I got an Apex and it got so much better yet... A concealed handgun class instructor I know suggested balancing a penny on front sight and pulling trigger so as to learn how to pull trigger without jerking or pulling. I never took a class and now strictly with my target and a little practice I empty an entire magazine of .40 at 7-10 yards as fast as I can pull the trigger and every one is a head shot. No its not that impressive but just goes to show what a little practice and minimal resources can do for you if you use them.

 

[wittmeba]

I don't disagree with Ras' additional comments. As pointed out in the first sight picture with nothing else changing but the size of the circle the POI will move and that's not good. That's why I use the second option - it works best for me.

It is much easier to align the top of the sights horizontally with the line horizontal to the bulls-eye...it just works.

I agree you can't keep 3 points at any significant distance in focus but I focus on the target and align the "clouded" image of the front and rear sights into place...again it works for me. You can briefly look back at your sights to confirm the sight image but my focus goes back to the target.

During target practice you usually have time to make adjustments. In defense times you probably won't so it has to be right immediately.

 

[CWPINST]

I teach Concealed Carry classes. I recommend that folks spend about $50 and get a decent CO2 BB pistol, preferably one that is a copy of your carry gun. Mine is an M&P. The triggers are crappy, but it is very good to teach sight alignment and trigger control. It is also quiet and CHEAP to shoot. You will also be pretty surprised at how well you will be able to hit with one.

 

[JJEH]

Lots of great advice here. So all I'll add is please never forget to have fun. As frustrating as it might be at times

 

[hangnoose]

SHOOTING

YOU DID CHECK YOUR EYE DOMINENCE, CORRECT? Then practice/practice/practice. At first make your objective to be a good group size, hold at the exact point of aim each time & don't compensate, or worry about where the shots are landing. A small group will tell you, you are doing well & being consistent in grip/trigger work/aim. the rest is tweaking & fine tuning. DON'T fall into, the last shot was high left, now I need to aim low right folly. At least not in the beginning. Let me amend this a bit. Start saving your boxes, a new piece of cardboard to hang targets on is MUCH EASIER to see, than guess where your shots are going, or the group size. Yes focus on the front sight. If you have different shooting glasses or specs, try them all & see if you shoot any different or better with each. I really want to avoid a too many chefs type of situation but a tip I recently got of holding the sights just a tad more in front/center of my dominant eye has made it more comfortable & natural for shooting with both eyes open, for me. something some of us older dogs have had to re-learn.

 

[wittmeba]

...and don't make several changes between shot groups. You won't know the effect of each change. Do them one at a time and do 3-5 shots again.

 

[Johnmuratore]

I've learned a bunch today from reading Rastoff's posts.
That dot/sight picture and description really rang a bell.

Seriously, thanks Bud

 

[FMCDH!]

Get a 686 + and call it a day. I can hit a 10-12 inch plate 50 yards away no problem.

 

[ejhc11]

Since its too cold outside maybe you could get an airgun for inside, much cheaper and easier to get trigger time. They even make one like your MP 9mm - see here Smith & Wesson Smith & Wesson M&P, Dark Earth Brown. Air guns

Don't forget dry fire before and in-between live firing when you do shoot the 9mm. At least 5 dry fires to every 5 live ammo shots. Don't shoot more than 5 live shots either, rest and focus, then dry fire. No need to rush.