That's like when I would see Daisy Duke wearing two different tops during the same ongoing car chase. A definite failure in continuity.
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Inane moronic question from a newby doing research
- Thread starter Mig
- Start date
That's like when I would see Daisy Duke wearing two different tops during the same ongoing car chase. A definite failure in continuity.
Books whose authors.....
...could not have direct experience with the books they wrote.
Earth to the Moon
20,000 Leagues Under the Sea
Frankenstein
The Divine Comedy
Lolita (unless Nabokov DID experience the subject)
War of the Worlds
Alice in Wonderland
Siddhartha
The Three Musketeers
The Harry Potter series
...could not have direct experience with the books they wrote.
Earth to the Moon
20,000 Leagues Under the Sea
Frankenstein
The Divine Comedy
Lolita (unless Nabokov DID experience the subject)
War of the Worlds
Alice in Wonderland
Siddhartha
The Three Musketeers
The Harry Potter series
Open invitation....
Yes, mig. You can justify the expense of the trip to research on your book. Hop a plane and come hook up with me or any of a number of people here.
Yes, mig. You can justify the expense of the trip to research on your book. Hop a plane and come hook up with me or any of a number of people here.
O
Let's take a step or two back. Semi automatic pistols like the Model 1911 do not have multiple chambers like a revolver. They have one. To load a semi auto you insert a magazine. If you pull the trigger nothing happens. Because all the cartridges are still in the magazine. To move a cartridge into the chamber on the 1911, you pull the slide of the weapon back. What this does mechanically is it cocks the hammer back (the slide pushes it back and down as the slide is pulled back), releases a round from the magazine ready to move into the chamber. When the slide moves forward the hammer stays back in the cocked position (held back by a part called a sear) and the cartridge released from the magazine is moved into the chamber. Pull the trigger and the weapon fires.
When the weapon fires (we are still talking about model 1911's) the gasses from the explosive discharge if the round do what you just did manually above - it blows the slide back, discharges the empty shell case, releases a new loaded cartridge from the magazine and springs inside pull the slide forward inserting the new cartridge into the chamber. That process will repeat with each fired round until there are no more cartridges left in the magazine. At which point on a model 1911 the empty magazine locks the slide back. Release the empty magazine ram a loaded magazine in release the slide and do it all over again.
If you pull the trigger on a weapon you just emptied noting happens. The hammer is under the slide and the sear has not set.
Now you can rack the slide on an empty magazine and release the slide. The sear will disengage and the hammer will fall. Just a click.
Revolvers are totally different animals. They have not one but multiple chambers. If you pull the trigger on loaded chambers the pistol will fire. Mechanically there is no assist from the gas blow back. You have to advance the next chamber manually. For single action revolvers the only way to do that is to pull the hammer back. For double action revolvers you can move the cylinder to the next loaded chamber by either pulling the hammer back or pulling the trigger. As you might imagine pulling the trigger in a double action revolver involves a lot of mechanical work, and due to that pulling the trigger to fire the next round requires a lot more force that pulling the trigger after you have manually pulled the hammer back to its locked position. With the latter, all a pull of the trigger has to do is release the sear. With the former, the trigger pull has to rotate the cylinder , move the hammer back to lock and release the sear.
Let's take a step or two back. Semi automatic pistols like the Model 1911 do not have multiple chambers like a revolver. They have one. To load a semi auto you insert a magazine. If you pull the trigger nothing happens. Because all the cartridges are still in the magazine. To move a cartridge into the chamber on the 1911, you pull the slide of the weapon back. What this does mechanically is it cocks the hammer back (the slide pushes it back and down as the slide is pulled back), releases a round from the magazine ready to move into the chamber. When the slide moves forward the hammer stays back in the cocked position (held back by a part called a sear) and the cartridge released from the magazine is moved into the chamber. Pull the trigger and the weapon fires.
When the weapon fires (we are still talking about model 1911's) the gasses from the explosive discharge if the round do what you just did manually above - it blows the slide back, discharges the empty shell case, releases a new loaded cartridge from the magazine and springs inside pull the slide forward inserting the new cartridge into the chamber. That process will repeat with each fired round until there are no more cartridges left in the magazine. At which point on a model 1911 the empty magazine locks the slide back. Release the empty magazine ram a loaded magazine in release the slide and do it all over again.
If you pull the trigger on a weapon you just emptied noting happens. The hammer is under the slide and the sear has not set.
Now you can rack the slide on an empty magazine and release the slide. The sear will disengage and the hammer will fall. Just a click.
Revolvers are totally different animals. They have not one but multiple chambers. If you pull the trigger on loaded chambers the pistol will fire. Mechanically there is no assist from the gas blow back. You have to advance the next chamber manually. For single action revolvers the only way to do that is to pull the hammer back. For double action revolvers you can move the cylinder to the next loaded chamber by either pulling the hammer back or pulling the trigger. As you might imagine pulling the trigger in a double action revolver involves a lot of mechanical work, and due to that pulling the trigger to fire the next round requires a lot more force that pulling the trigger after you have manually pulled the hammer back to its locked position. With the latter, all a pull of the trigger has to do is release the sear. With the former, the trigger pull has to rotate the cylinder , move the hammer back to lock and release the sear.
Texas Star
US Veteran
The British writer who had the best gun data in books was probably Peter O'Donnell in his, Modesty Blaise series.
But I think he read American gun magazines for most of his info.
If so, he did a pretty good job of it, although some readers probably told him that Modesty's Colt .32 (no model mentioned) was too light for reliable stopping power. He had her change to a Star PD .45. She also used a S&W .41 Magnum on occasion, as did one villain. Another crook had a S&W Bodyguard .38. Most of the guns used were entirely plausible. Read his books, but bear in mind that he wrote from 1964-1996, and you are setting your book in the 1920's.
I think you should buy Geoffrey Boothroyd's, The Handgun, Crown Publishers, 1970. It will give the best overall view of handguns to that date. Boothroyd advised Ian Fleming about James Bond's guns, and knew his business.
Setting the story in the 1920's limits the models used, so you have less research to do. You could limit yourself to 5-6 brands and suitable models. Keep in mind that some German guns captured in WWI would be available in Britain. You may or may not be affected by the 1920 gun law. Criminals ignore laws. Your lawful characters would have to work within that restrictive framework.
I wrote a number of fan fiction stories about a TV show, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's The Lost World. It was set on TV from 1919-22, and I extended that to stories as late as 1929. I know guns of that era well, and those I mentioned that weren't those from the show were selected for the times and the characters. I did have them carrying illegally on occasion, and otherwise having guns where legal.
In one case, Marguerite Roxton (by then married to Lord John Roxton) shot a thug with a Mauser .32 (7.65mm) that she'd bought from a London pub owner who sold illegal guns to those he trusted. The gun was therefore not listed on her Firearms Certificate and was not traceable to her. Lord Roxton retrieved the ejected cartridge case, beat it flat, and threw it in the Thames. The thug she wounded wasn't about to go to the police and had an unethical doctor who treated underworld characters remove the bullet. No evidence therefore reached the police, and the shooting wasn't solved or even reported.
There was only one other case where my characters shot anyone in the UK, and that was in a stately manor owned by Marguerite's half brother, a character I created. The shooting was ruled justified. All other shootings of humans were in the Amazon or while on safari in Kenya or shikar in India. Thus, UK laws were not as much a factor. A girl named Finn did shoot an Arab slaver at a range that made it questionable if the shooting was really lawful, the villain having fired a Mauser 7.63mm pistol against her .275 Rigby riffe. But she was assisting the police and the District Commissioner overlooked the strict issue of how much danger she was in. Also, the Arab was fleeing. But he had kidnapped the wife of an Earl, a member of the King's Privy Council! He was wanted for murder, slave running, and ivory poaching.
Always have all legal and other practical issues of your shootings in mind. The plot must seem plausible.
One UK writer who handles guns well, save for thinking that a hollow point .25 is more potent than it is, is Jack Higgins. He usually just names a brand and readers must decide which model is involved. He does mention Browning Hi-Power and Walther PPK guns by name, and AK-47's. These guns are so well known that he is aware of them. I doubt he knows a lot about guns in general, despite his book jackets saying that he's a "marksman." He does live on the Channel Islands, so avoids the 1997 UK handgun ban. I understand that it doesn't affect the Islands or Northern Ireland.
I have readers in about 60 countries, and the only complaint I got about guns was from a UK editor,who said I used too much detail, and that readers don't care about gun models. He is simply wrong. But he publishes romance novels, with women readers! I doubt he's read the Modesty Blaise thrillers or Jack Higgins's books, etc.
You need to read a lot about guns and see how the British authors I mentioned employ them. There is no substitute for real knowledge, and gun lovers are very critical. If an author blows his gun data, I usually don't finish the book.
I don't know if Wilbur Smith is a Briton or a South African. He has homes in both places. On YouTube videos, he sounds more South African and was born in what is now Zambia. He occasionally blows a gun model, but his books are overall so interesting that I overlook a minor gun error or his historical accuracy in his ancient Egyptian series.
But I think he read American gun magazines for most of his info.
If so, he did a pretty good job of it, although some readers probably told him that Modesty's Colt .32 (no model mentioned) was too light for reliable stopping power. He had her change to a Star PD .45. She also used a S&W .41 Magnum on occasion, as did one villain. Another crook had a S&W Bodyguard .38. Most of the guns used were entirely plausible. Read his books, but bear in mind that he wrote from 1964-1996, and you are setting your book in the 1920's.
I think you should buy Geoffrey Boothroyd's, The Handgun, Crown Publishers, 1970. It will give the best overall view of handguns to that date. Boothroyd advised Ian Fleming about James Bond's guns, and knew his business.
Setting the story in the 1920's limits the models used, so you have less research to do. You could limit yourself to 5-6 brands and suitable models. Keep in mind that some German guns captured in WWI would be available in Britain. You may or may not be affected by the 1920 gun law. Criminals ignore laws. Your lawful characters would have to work within that restrictive framework.
I wrote a number of fan fiction stories about a TV show, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's The Lost World. It was set on TV from 1919-22, and I extended that to stories as late as 1929. I know guns of that era well, and those I mentioned that weren't those from the show were selected for the times and the characters. I did have them carrying illegally on occasion, and otherwise having guns where legal.
In one case, Marguerite Roxton (by then married to Lord John Roxton) shot a thug with a Mauser .32 (7.65mm) that she'd bought from a London pub owner who sold illegal guns to those he trusted. The gun was therefore not listed on her Firearms Certificate and was not traceable to her. Lord Roxton retrieved the ejected cartridge case, beat it flat, and threw it in the Thames. The thug she wounded wasn't about to go to the police and had an unethical doctor who treated underworld characters remove the bullet. No evidence therefore reached the police, and the shooting wasn't solved or even reported.
There was only one other case where my characters shot anyone in the UK, and that was in a stately manor owned by Marguerite's half brother, a character I created. The shooting was ruled justified. All other shootings of humans were in the Amazon or while on safari in Kenya or shikar in India. Thus, UK laws were not as much a factor. A girl named Finn did shoot an Arab slaver at a range that made it questionable if the shooting was really lawful, the villain having fired a Mauser 7.63mm pistol against her .275 Rigby riffe. But she was assisting the police and the District Commissioner overlooked the strict issue of how much danger she was in. Also, the Arab was fleeing. But he had kidnapped the wife of an Earl, a member of the King's Privy Council! He was wanted for murder, slave running, and ivory poaching.
Always have all legal and other practical issues of your shootings in mind. The plot must seem plausible.
One UK writer who handles guns well, save for thinking that a hollow point .25 is more potent than it is, is Jack Higgins. He usually just names a brand and readers must decide which model is involved. He does mention Browning Hi-Power and Walther PPK guns by name, and AK-47's. These guns are so well known that he is aware of them. I doubt he knows a lot about guns in general, despite his book jackets saying that he's a "marksman." He does live on the Channel Islands, so avoids the 1997 UK handgun ban. I understand that it doesn't affect the Islands or Northern Ireland.
I have readers in about 60 countries, and the only complaint I got about guns was from a UK editor,who said I used too much detail, and that readers don't care about gun models. He is simply wrong. But he publishes romance novels, with women readers! I doubt he's read the Modesty Blaise thrillers or Jack Higgins's books, etc.
You need to read a lot about guns and see how the British authors I mentioned employ them. There is no substitute for real knowledge, and gun lovers are very critical. If an author blows his gun data, I usually don't finish the book.
I don't know if Wilbur Smith is a Briton or a South African. He has homes in both places. On YouTube videos, he sounds more South African and was born in what is now Zambia. He occasionally blows a gun model, but his books are overall so interesting that I overlook a minor gun error or his historical accuracy in his ancient Egyptian series.
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bulletslap
Member
I second the idea on vacationing in a gun friendly country and shooting some period handguns.
Telecaster
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In the '20s, terminology was different. A 1911 might well have been referred to as an automatic, not a semiauto. Old Cold ads even call it an automatic. Research what vocabulary was used for today's gun lingo, like cartridge vs. shell vs. round. Don't use "clip," even if the word meant magazine back then; you'll get bashed.
BLACKHAWKNJ
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It was to alert a shooter that his semiauto pistol-or bolt action rifle-has "run dry" that the bolt stop or slide stop was developed.
The noted UK gunwriter Geoffrey Boothroyd wrote to Ian Fleming pointing out the mistakes he made in one of his first James Bond books. In the next one "Major Boothroyd" was James Bond's armorer.
One of the most popular Sherlock Holmes stories is "Silver Blaze" about a missing race horse. Conan Doyle admitted he did no research and his description of English horse racing is way off.
The noted UK gunwriter Geoffrey Boothroyd wrote to Ian Fleming pointing out the mistakes he made in one of his first James Bond books. In the next one "Major Boothroyd" was James Bond's armorer.
One of the most popular Sherlock Holmes stories is "Silver Blaze" about a missing race horse. Conan Doyle admitted he did no research and his description of English horse racing is way off.
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If You intend to describe gunfights, bullets do not spark on impact. I think much has been described here and You should have not to many more questions. If You do, just ask here and You will get many real answers.
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Don't reference "the smell of cordite in the air" after a gun discharges, unless your novel takes place a hundred years ago.
Texas Star
US Veteran
Just a quick addition:
Fleming didn't always take Boothroyd's advice. Boothroyd advised a S&W Centennial .38, but Fleming, on the strength of one article in, American Rifleman, chose the Walther PPK to replace Bond's .25 Beretta. Fleming liked small, flat autos. I read that article, which unfairly compared small German .32's to full size Colt .45 and P-38 and 8mm Nambu pistols. But Euro detectives and later, some British agencies, really used PPK's. I'm sure some of this was due to the Bond books.
After Ian Fleming's death, S&W introduced the Model 60, the first stainless steel handgun, and Boothroyd wrote that it was logically the best James Bond gun.
BTW, Fleming owned a Colt New Service revolver. I think it may have been the "long-barrelled .45 Colt" that Bond kept in his Bentley, although a .45 auto might make more sense. And the long-barreled .22 pistol used by one girl in a 007 story was probably a Ruger MK I, which the author owned. In all, Fleming owned about 5-6 handguns, most of which weren't especially adapted to James Bond's needs. One was a Colt Official Police .38 given him by Gen. Donovan, head of America's OSS.
As a spy himself, Fleming carried a Baby Browning .25. But I don't know if he kept it after the war.
Until 1997, Britons could legally own handguns, and as a famous author and gentleman, Fleming easily got through the red tape to own his. He died in 1965, so never encountered the gun ban.
Oh: the real Geoffrey Boothroyd looked nothing like the Maj. Bothroyd played by an actor in, "Dr. No", the first Bond movie. But he got some stationery from the movie set, and I have a letter from him on that paper.
Whitwabit
US Veteran
This might help you understand how a Revolver and an auto pistol works !!
AUTO"s
how an auto pistol works - Bing video
REVOLVERS
how an revolver pistol works - Bing video
AUTO"s
how an auto pistol works - Bing video
REVOLVERS
how an revolver pistol works - Bing video
Texas Star
US Veteran
Keep in mind that British ammo used Cordite for years beyond what one might think. It was standard until at least after WW II. British .38-200 ammo marked 2Z used flake powder.
But he wants to set stories in the 1920's. If US or German ammo is used, no Cordite. That was a UK propellent. German bullets for shooting game were also better, the Brenneke Torpedo and Ideal patterns. The American Nosler didn't appear until about 1949. But British ammo was reliable and bullets by Rigby and others were well suited for the heaviest animals.
Keep in mind that Britons called shotgun shells (American) "cartridges", just like they did metallic ammo.
And learn the difference between bullets and complete cartridges. TV newscasters frequently muff this.
BTW, Colt had an agency in the UK from about 1851 until handguns became illegal there. Their .32 automatic was quite popular in the UK and the Empire, where pistols were allowed. Churchill and other officers also liked the Model 1911 Government Model .45. Yes, it was designed by John Browning, but made by Colt. In WW I, several others were licensed to make it, as they were in WW II. Lord Lovat was a famous user of the Colt .45 auto in WW II, and Churchill tried to get enough to make it the standard pistol for his Commando regiments. However, beginning in 1920 (with passage of the new gun law), I think officers had to carry issued sidearms. Prior to that, they bought their own. Churchill got his in 1915. As Prime Minister in 1940, he bought many new ones and tried to get his police bodyguard to carry one. But that man preferred the Webley .32 auto, the std. police pistol then, and back at least as far as the 1920's. So, your stories can say that the cops had Webley .32 automatics. Of course, most carried no pistols at all. I have a character using a Webley .32 in a short story on Fan Fiction.net, but he was a villain. Still, that gun suited his nature and the times.
Keep in mind that if you use our advice, you may need a translator. As Churchill (or maybe Shaw originally) said, the English and the Americans are two peoples separated by a common language! I am of British descent, quite probably a hereditary Baronet, maybe an Earl. (Genealogy research continues.)
I read more books by British authors than do most Americans and see some UK movies. But even I don't know many British slang terms, etc. And we say chick where you say bird, for girls. Bonnet vs. hood on cars, etc. Ian Fleming messed up on some US terms in his Bond books.
In those, Lost World stories mentioned, the arrogant London editor tried to jack me up because I had Prof. Challenger eat eggs cooked "over easy." (US term for eggs turned in the skillet; not "sunny side up," with the yellows staring at you.) Said that Britons don't eat eggs cooked "over easy."
Now, those eggs were cooked by Anglo-Brazilian character Veronica Layton. Otherwise, they'd probably have been cooked by her virtual sister (after Third Season episodes), Finn, also Anglo-Brazilian. These blondes were Anglos, but born in Brazil and def. would be brasileira. in some regards, despite speaking American English. (Marguerite Krux, later Lady Roxton, Countess of Avebury, was lazy and a poor cook.) And Veronica was involved with American reporter Ned Malone. How do you think she'd cook those eggs?
My son has eaten eggs "over easy" in Britain and had no trouble ordering them that way, nor did other diners. The order raised no eyebrows. And Ian Fleming, like me, was a Gemini who liked scrambled eggs. He even published his recipe for the best scrambled eggs! Some Britons just hate to praise American authors, picking at our spelling, too. I'm sure that member Kurusu will confirm that Brazilian Portuguese differs from "pure" Portuguese. But is Alessandra Ambrosio any less beautiful than Sara Sampaio? Both supermodels are pretty and very smart. Alessandra also designs clothes and Sara is a very shrewd poker player, professionally. Alessandra is brasileira, and Sara is true Portuguese. Both are outstanding women. Do their spelling differences really matter, if we grasp the meaning of the words? To be sure, a carioca in Rio de Janeiro may use a word that a friend just in from Lisbon may not recognize.
Anyway, check gun terms to be sure you use UK versions. Otherwise, it'll set off some editors who dislike Americans. Yes, I'm quite serious. Ditto for some UK readers!
And, beware of those who saw, "Downton Abbey" and other period-centered lifestyle shows. If they think you got a minute detail wrong, they'll slam you! In my case, some thought I had Finn being too familiar with her chauffeur and maids after marrying Challenger. (I killed off Jessie Challenger via flu.) So, then some, especially middle-aged ladies, objected to Challenger marrying a girl less than half his age. But I think they "click" as I wrote them.
The only thing you can be sure of as an author is that, as Lincoln said (paraphrase), you can please some of the readers all of the time and all readers some of the time. But you'll never please all readers all of the time! And that goes double for editors, many of whom are self-centered elitists. They frequently think they know more than they do.
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DWalt
Member
Regarding the slides of semiauto pistols locking back after the last cartridge in the magazine has been fired. Some pistols have that capability as part of their designs, and some do not. And for various reasons, there are sometimes failures of that feature to work properly even if present.
nachogrande
Member
FIRST OFF WELCOME.
I agree, no stupid questions. A specific question about a specific gun would be the way to go. All these years & I just noticed the "member status" thing.
Sorry to hear about yours. 
I agree, no stupid questions. A specific question about a specific gun would be the way to go. All these years & I just noticed the "member status" thing.
Sorry to hear about yours. Why? What are your qualifications?
What you call genius, I call bull****. And usually the unqualified do NOT write credibly.
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Someone always has to defacate in the punchbowl.
How many novels have you written?
nachogrande
Member
I GUESS THAT'S WHY SOME BOOKS ARE LABLED FICTION?
Pretty sure Jules Verne never traveled to the center of the Earth, George Orwell never lived to 1984, Gene Rodenberry never traveled at warp speed.
Pretty sure Jules Verne never traveled to the center of the Earth, George Orwell never lived to 1984, Gene Rodenberry never traveled at warp speed.
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Well, Model520Fan, you have a great day, too!
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Wonder if some of y'all scared the poor guy off after his first post? Hope he found at least some of this helpful.
