Interesting decision by the F.B.I.
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I wonder how much money was spent on the study to determine the 10mm was the 'best' caliber for the FBI after the Dade county incident, and then equip them with 10mm's ?
Then to switch to the 40 S&W because the 10 mm was too big with too much recoil.
Then for another study to switch back to the 9mm ?
If it weren't for the female agents, and smaller stature male officers who found the 1006 too cumbersome to handel. Plus the fact that the low end .10 mm could be housed in a smaller case using a 9mm frame gun,the .10mm would be flourishing better these days.
Personaly I would never carry a 9mm for defense.Unless it was an upgraded caliber to the .380 in an ultra compact pistol.
dpast32
Member
>>> Does anyone know the actual cartridge they will be using ?
IIRC, at the present time, it appears to be a 147 gr. Bonded / JHP, of unknown mfgr. Personally, I can't see why they wish to adopt a ctg that equates the ballistics of the old 158 gr. .38 Spl.+P out of a 4" bbl. ? ( @ 147 gr. 9x19 = 950 - 1,050 FPS ) The FBI has always insisted on penetration in their handgun loads, & that's one of the reasons they prefer the 147's in 9mm. This duty caliber debate has been going on since the mid 1960's, with each side having their valid points. However, the law enf. Arena has been changing, both in composition of personnel, & with general budget concerns. These days, LEO's tend to be off all shapes, types, & genders. Many people just cant handle the larger calibers, where the 9mm tends to be manageable to the mass majority of trainees. ( Albeit with a bit of training. ) It's all been said before, "Put the rounds in the boiler room, and they will go down". Of all the 9mm's critics, the ONLY really valid concern is it's lack of stopping power, right ? With many of today's loadings, it appears as if the 9mm just might be what all the mid to large size agencies are looking for. It offers capacity, accuracy, controllability, lower ammo costs & it's size efficient in most of the pistols it's chambered in. "IF" the using agency issues one of the new generation loads, & takes the time to train it's people, I think the 9mm should do just fine, maybe.
ADDENDUM: I may be wrong with the 147 gr. projectile weight, as it appears that the FBI / DOJ may be leaning towards the Federal (ATK) 124 gr. HST loading for it's basic issue duty load. Personally, I like the Win. 127 gr. JHP+P+, but that's just me. There are currently a bunch of really good 124 - 135 gr. loadings available. As usual, it will probably be determined by the lowest bid.
dpast32
IIRC, at the present time, it appears to be a 147 gr. Bonded / JHP, of unknown mfgr. Personally, I can't see why they wish to adopt a ctg that equates the ballistics of the old 158 gr. .38 Spl.+P out of a 4" bbl. ? ( @ 147 gr. 9x19 = 950 - 1,050 FPS ) The FBI has always insisted on penetration in their handgun loads, & that's one of the reasons they prefer the 147's in 9mm. This duty caliber debate has been going on since the mid 1960's, with each side having their valid points. However, the law enf. Arena has been changing, both in composition of personnel, & with general budget concerns. These days, LEO's tend to be off all shapes, types, & genders. Many people just cant handle the larger calibers, where the 9mm tends to be manageable to the mass majority of trainees. ( Albeit with a bit of training. ) It's all been said before, "Put the rounds in the boiler room, and they will go down". Of all the 9mm's critics, the ONLY really valid concern is it's lack of stopping power, right ? With many of today's loadings, it appears as if the 9mm just might be what all the mid to large size agencies are looking for. It offers capacity, accuracy, controllability, lower ammo costs & it's size efficient in most of the pistols it's chambered in. "IF" the using agency issues one of the new generation loads, & takes the time to train it's people, I think the 9mm should do just fine, maybe.
ADDENDUM: I may be wrong with the 147 gr. projectile weight, as it appears that the FBI / DOJ may be leaning towards the Federal (ATK) 124 gr. HST loading for it's basic issue duty load. Personally, I like the Win. 127 gr. JHP+P+, but that's just me. There are currently a bunch of really good 124 - 135 gr. loadings available. As usual, it will probably be determined by the lowest bid.
dpast32
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jazzsax8
Member
Is it possible that a government influence peddler that stands to gain mightily from this, has just pulled off another drain on our pockets?
M
M
Couple of things
I don't know why a .40 cal gun that was BUILT to be a .40 cal gun would have any more wear issues than any caliber pistol.
The adage has always been 'bigger is better, IF you can handle it". Obviously the average agent couldn't handle the .40 well enough.
Why can't the agency adopt two pistols? A 9mm and a REAL .40 would cover about anything.
I don't know why a .40 cal gun that was BUILT to be a .40 cal gun would have any more wear issues than any caliber pistol.
The adage has always been 'bigger is better, IF you can handle it". Obviously the average agent couldn't handle the .40 well enough.
Why can't the agency adopt two pistols? A 9mm and a REAL .40 would cover about anything.
I attended a Hostage Negotiators class put on by the FBI in 1983. They were just trading in their 9mms for .40 callibers & 10mms. The science hasn't changed since then. Those guys just like to have new guns. (and cars, and planes, and boats, and suits, and sun-glasses…)
A 9 or 40 is nice but...........
you can't swap ammo in a fire fight.
Now a 357 and 38 is different but they don't usually hold
10 to 18 rounds.
BIG is nice, most say .......but the little 357 MAGNUM is still
plenty of gun for me with a little 125gr JHP at just factory speeds.
With the right powder you can..................
"Cook and drop them" with just one shot at close range.
you can't swap ammo in a fire fight.
Now a 357 and 38 is different but they don't usually hold
10 to 18 rounds.
BIG is nice, most say .......but the little 357 MAGNUM is still
plenty of gun for me with a little 125gr JHP at just factory speeds.
With the right powder you can..................
"Cook and drop them" with just one shot at close range.
And yet, the military is looking to abandon the 9mm for something larger with more stopping power having found the 9mm doesn't put the enemy down fast enough.
smokindog
Member
And I preface by saying I do not know the answer .... but could that decision be based on what I understand to be their required use of FMJ????
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The military doesn't get to play with bonded JHP's either. Well, at least they're not supposed to...
FBI Ammo Purchasing
For the record, a federal LEO agency may put out a request for bids on ammunition. However, they specify exactly what they are looking for and ammo manufacturers who believe they can meet those specifications may submit bids.
If a company comes out with a breakthrough in ammunition, the federal agency may put out a "sole-source" contract, meaning that only one manufacturer can meet their current ammunition standard, therefore, they are not going to follow the bidding process.
Once a contract is in effect, any other federal law enforcement agency may buy ammo under the terms of the contract without having to invite bids. At least, that's the way I remember it.
For the record, a federal LEO agency may put out a request for bids on ammunition. However, they specify exactly what they are looking for and ammo manufacturers who believe they can meet those specifications may submit bids.
If a company comes out with a breakthrough in ammunition, the federal agency may put out a "sole-source" contract, meaning that only one manufacturer can meet their current ammunition standard, therefore, they are not going to follow the bidding process.
Once a contract is in effect, any other federal law enforcement agency may buy ammo under the terms of the contract without having to invite bids. At least, that's the way I remember it.
Coldshooter
Member
Darn. I just gave my son my Glock 17 and kept my P99 and 1911.
sigp220.45
US Veteran
The level of interest in these threads always amazes me.
This should matter to about 12,000 FBI agents and a couple of hundred FBI uniformed police. We don't issue ammo to any other agencies. NYPD, Chicago PD, and the East Bumfudge Heights Sheriff's Office can still issue and carry whatever ammo they like.
This has nothing to do with small guys and females ("runts and *****" in the vernacular) not being able to qualify. After 21 weeks in the Academy, where a New Agent fires about 10,000 rounds, you can either shoot or you don't graduate. I was a Bureau Firearms Instructor for about 15 years - our people can shoot.
Its about money. 9mm is cheaper, its easier on the guns, and according to our ammo gurus it is just as effective as anything else. So why pay more? Its your money we're spending after all. And this is from a guy who paid his own money 23 years ago for a Sig P220 and has carried it ever since. (I just found my first paystub going through some stuff. I took home $846. The Sig was $533. The Mrs was not happy.)
Guys with .40s will keep their .40s unless they want to switch. New guys will get 9mms. Old farts like me and SWAT guys will still carry .45s or whatever has been grandfathered in. Birds will sing, dogs will bark, and bad guys shot between the shirt pockets will still fall down.
Current issue 9mm (yes, we have allowed 9mms since forever) is the 147 grain Gold Dot. I suspect it will continue. .40 is a 180 grain Winchester bonded JHP. .45 ACP is a 230 grain Golden Saber. 10mm (yep, still have those) is a 190 grain Federal JHP.
I have to carry whatever ammo they give me. Since in my case it is a big fat .45 hollowpoint, I'm fine. (Also, the price is right.) I'd probably be fine with the issue 9mm, too. Other agents are welcome carry the issue 9mm or pony up for a .40 or .45 ACP. But if you don't work for the FBI, why would anyone care?
This should matter to about 12,000 FBI agents and a couple of hundred FBI uniformed police. We don't issue ammo to any other agencies. NYPD, Chicago PD, and the East Bumfudge Heights Sheriff's Office can still issue and carry whatever ammo they like.
This has nothing to do with small guys and females ("runts and *****" in the vernacular) not being able to qualify. After 21 weeks in the Academy, where a New Agent fires about 10,000 rounds, you can either shoot or you don't graduate. I was a Bureau Firearms Instructor for about 15 years - our people can shoot.
Its about money. 9mm is cheaper, its easier on the guns, and according to our ammo gurus it is just as effective as anything else. So why pay more? Its your money we're spending after all. And this is from a guy who paid his own money 23 years ago for a Sig P220 and has carried it ever since. (I just found my first paystub going through some stuff. I took home $846. The Sig was $533. The Mrs was not happy.)
Guys with .40s will keep their .40s unless they want to switch. New guys will get 9mms. Old farts like me and SWAT guys will still carry .45s or whatever has been grandfathered in. Birds will sing, dogs will bark, and bad guys shot between the shirt pockets will still fall down.
Current issue 9mm (yes, we have allowed 9mms since forever) is the 147 grain Gold Dot. I suspect it will continue. .40 is a 180 grain Winchester bonded JHP. .45 ACP is a 230 grain Golden Saber. 10mm (yep, still have those) is a 190 grain Federal JHP.
I have to carry whatever ammo they give me. Since in my case it is a big fat .45 hollowpoint, I'm fine. (Also, the price is right.) I'd probably be fine with the issue 9mm, too. Other agents are welcome carry the issue 9mm or pony up for a .40 or .45 ACP. But if you don't work for the FBI, why would anyone care?
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What do you guys really expect from a bunch of lawyers that happen to carry guns. First of all if the government wanted a study and those conducting the study wanted shoulder fired nukes that's what the study would prove. I wonder what % of FBI guys ever have to actually use their weapons compared to real LEOs. I could care less what the FBI carries.The difference in the cost of the guns and the ammo maters to government spending like a drop of water maters to the ocean
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That's all good, but there is no such thing as a "well placed shot". Even a head shot can be deflected by bone or even flesh. There is not a 100% guarantee of exactly how a bullet will react when it hits flesh and bone regardless of the caliber. The "spray mentality" you describe is ridiculous. It's simply smarter to have a few extra shots available to get the job done if needed.
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OP
Protected One
Member
It interestus because...
It matters to many of us non-FBI agents for the same reason that NASCAR technology interest us non-Racers: We are enthusiast...and there's nothing wrong with that.
It matters to many of us non-FBI agents for the same reason that NASCAR technology interest us non-Racers: We are enthusiast...and there's nothing wrong with that.
Some interesting points have been made. I have never raised a firearm at any human and hope to never have to. However I have shot well over 100 head of big game and escorted many deer and elk hunters and seeing another 100 plus head of game shot. During my hunting career I was an Elmer Keith fan and shot many head of game with the likes of 338's, 375's and 416's. After decades of terminal ballistics study with over 100 bullets in my collection that have actually taken game animals, I have came to the conclusion that accurate placement and good bullets trump big caliber. But I doubt my ability to make accurate handguns shots when equal amounts of lead are heading my way. If my memory serves me well, the FBI shootout in Florida was conducted with 9mm using Winchester 115 grain Silvertips hollow points. Penetration was lacking but by an inch to make a disabling shot. I myself used 185 grain Silvertips out of a 45 ACP on a 125 pound antelope. I shot her 7 times with little effect and was able to recover 5 of the bullets. The last shot was at mere feet away and the shot was at mid neck. The goat didn't even blink to the shot and finally expired from blood loss. I shot a small boar javalina @30 pounds with a 45 ACP using an early 200 grain Speer hollow point bullet. One broadside lung shot and it simply ran away and died from blood loss @50 yards away. A friend shot a mountain lion with a 44 Special using a 200 grain Speer hollow point. The bullet was recovered and was so pristine it could have been reloaded and shot again. The cat ran about a hundred yards and weighed @165#. Two mule deer and one antelope shot with 357's using 158 grain Remington hollowpoints only lead to one quick kill and 2 that required way to many shots to bring to bag. I would assume modern bullets have improved considerably. After all the studying I have done, my bedside gun is a 45 ACP and my wife's is a 9mm. I would not feel slighted with a 9. It would be interesting to hear from others who have actually taken game with various calibers and hear their experiences.
semperfi71
US Veteran
What I find interesting, and I have never been an LEO, but I remember that in the 1970s and early 1980s there was a large number of agencies that would not allow hollow-point ammunition because it was considered "inhumane" by people outside of the agencies who controlled them. And by the liberal media.
Now it appears many LEO agencies use hollow-points and no one seems to care.
Now it appears many LEO agencies use hollow-points and no one seems to care.
Point taken, but having served in a number of PDs ... where our admin people try to get that FBI Academy endorsement on their resume ... they come back inculcated in all that the FBI says/does is good and right ..
The FBI being the premier law enforcement agency in the United States tends to add to the credibility of all they say and do .. in that light .. it is not just FBI agents who are concerned with this ... there are a lot of people who really believe the FBI has studied this and applied the science to come to the conclusion ... such is not really the case here is it? .. and honestly speaking, there is a world of difference between what the street cop needs vs. the detective/special agent and the home owner
and in my way of thinking .. I don't think spending money for premium ammo and firearms for the FBI is wasteful .. what I find more disturbing is the political shifts within that once great organization and the propaganda piece they are now pushing - these guys have a tough job and they deserve the best firearms and ammo my tax dollars can buy.
Tom_R
Member
Here is my take, if you have a 9mm, and you shoot it carry it and believe in it, then it is the best hand gun caliber, for you!
If you prefer .40 cal over 9mm because you have the hand strength to handle recoil and snappiness and you think .40 is the bees knees because it is the perfect package of firepower meeting capacity, then it is the best hand gun caliber out there, for you!
If you are a 1911 guy, and you think .45acp is what John Wayne carries in Heaven, and 7 or 8 rounds of JMB's and Colt's greatest is all you ever need, then it is the best handgun caliber out there, for you!
I have never felt low capability with any of the following:
My Sig Sauer 9mm with +p Corbons
My Kimber 1911 with 230 grain .45acp
Any of my S&W .357s
My 629 with 210 grain Silvertips .44 Magnums
Not one of those is 100% right, and not one of them is 100% wrong. Cany of those guns/ammo is a go to option.
If you prefer .40 cal over 9mm because you have the hand strength to handle recoil and snappiness and you think .40 is the bees knees because it is the perfect package of firepower meeting capacity, then it is the best hand gun caliber out there, for you!
If you are a 1911 guy, and you think .45acp is what John Wayne carries in Heaven, and 7 or 8 rounds of JMB's and Colt's greatest is all you ever need, then it is the best handgun caliber out there, for you!
I have never felt low capability with any of the following:
My Sig Sauer 9mm with +p Corbons
My Kimber 1911 with 230 grain .45acp
Any of my S&W .357s
My 629 with 210 grain Silvertips .44 Magnums
Not one of those is 100% right, and not one of them is 100% wrong. Cany of those guns/ammo is a go to option.
Tom_R
Member
I am interested in hearing more about your experiences.
The simple fact is that qualification scores go up with 9mm
(laughs and moves on)
Real LEOs
Steelslaver makes a comment comparing FBI agents to real LEOs, the implication, as I read it, is that FBI agents don't qualify.
It should be known that since its inception, 36 FBI agents have been killed in the line of duty as a direct result of adversarial action while another 24 have been killed (automobile accidents, commercial plane crashes, etc) while on duty.
No doubt, there are many smaller police departments that have never heard a shot fired in anger in their history.
Steelslaver makes a comment comparing FBI agents to real LEOs, the implication, as I read it, is that FBI agents don't qualify.
It should be known that since its inception, 36 FBI agents have been killed in the line of duty as a direct result of adversarial action while another 24 have been killed (automobile accidents, commercial plane crashes, etc) while on duty.
No doubt, there are many smaller police departments that have never heard a shot fired in anger in their history.
A couple more things.....
It's not the 'one shot drop' unless you have bad guys right in front of you. If you have multiple bad guys behind cover, you are going to want more than 8 shots. Having more firepower isn't necessarily 'spray and pray'. And if the philosophy one shot is better than a 'spray' why aren't m-16s set up for only 1 shot semi auto? I don't think military auto rifles are a good comparison to handguns for civilian agencies.
Did I read that article to say that agents couldn't handle .38 special rounds in a k- frame so they tried .22? Talk about wusses!!!
Whatever the FBI decides on, in a few years they will want to change to something else yet again.
Again, heavy calibers in a smaller frames recoil more and don't hold up as well, either.
It's not the 'one shot drop' unless you have bad guys right in front of you. If you have multiple bad guys behind cover, you are going to want more than 8 shots. Having more firepower isn't necessarily 'spray and pray'. And if the philosophy one shot is better than a 'spray' why aren't m-16s set up for only 1 shot semi auto? I don't think military auto rifles are a good comparison to handguns for civilian agencies.
Did I read that article to say that agents couldn't handle .38 special rounds in a k- frame so they tried .22? Talk about wusses!!!
Whatever the FBI decides on, in a few years they will want to change to something else yet again.
Again, heavy calibers in a smaller frames recoil more and don't hold up as well, either.
I have just been around hunting for 50+ years. I assume I saw over 300 head of BIG game shot. Just this weekend I witnessed 7 antelope shot within 9 hours. I have always been interested in terminal ballistics and recovered bullets. I have dug through many downed big game animals looking for damage and bullets. Handgun performance has always fascinated me and my lack of skill with a handgun led me to test bullet performance on recently dead animals. The closest thing I could get to actual live tests. Tested CCI Velocitors from a handgun this season on an antelope shoulders. Bullets went though one shoulder and nearly through the second. Just wish I had recorded all I have seen. I also record people I know and knew who were accidentally shot. I know two people who shot themselves with 44 magnums. Both survived relatively well with few long term effects.
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