Interesting decision by the F.B.I.

[hkcavalier]

If you need 17 more, your probably dead. A well placed shot from a .45 beats the "spray and pray" mentality of the 9mm crowd. Why do you think the M-16 was made to shot 3 rounds only?

This theory that people that carry 9mm simply spray in the general direction of the target, while 1911 guys put aimed shots directly center mass and score consistent CNS hits has never played out in practice.

A poorly trained shooter will empty his magazine at a target, whether it's 7, 17, 30, or a 100 round drum.

I've had the pleasure to talk and shoot with guys who had to rely on a pistol and they had no issues with a 9mm. Many rely on the Mozambique drill (2 center mass torso, one to the brain box) with a pistol which gives 3 chances to score a CNS hit and incapacitate the target. You can triple tap a lot more targets with a double stack 9mm. This is how I was taught with both the M16A2 (at CQB range) and the M9.

 

[zelda]

So the FBI says handgun stopping power is only a ''myth'' and is going to the 9mm.

A couple months ago the US MILITARY announces they are dropping the 9mm because it lacks sufficient ''stopping power'' due to lessons learned in Afghanistan and lraq. They are returning to the .45acp...


l know fact. Not myth. "SIZE MATTERS''

 

[DR505]

I attended a Hostage Negotiators class put on by the FBI in 1983. They were just trading in their 9mms for .40 callibers & 10mms. The science hasn't changed since then. Those guys just like to have new guns. (and cars, and planes, and boats, and suits, and sun-glasses…)

Sorry, that is just incorrect.

 

[DR505]

The FBI being the premier law enforcement agency in the United States tends to add to the credibility of all they say and do .. in that light .. it is not just FBI agents who are concerned with this ... there are a lot of people who really believe the FBI has studied this and applied the science to come to the conclusion ... such is not really the case here is it? .. and honestly speaking, there is a world of difference between what the street cop needs vs. the detective/special agent and the home owner

and in my way of thinking .. I don't think spending money for premium ammo and firearms for the FBI is wasteful .. what I find more disturbing is the political shifts within that once great organization and the propaganda piece they are now pushing - these guys have a tough job and they deserve the best firearms and ammo my tax dollars can buy.

You have obviously never been to the Ballistic Research Facility at Quantico, have you? I have...many times. I've been through the facility and watched the type of testing conducted. Your assertions are patently false and have no basis in fact. Any US Law Enforcement Agency can have access to the data...they need to make an official request on agency letterhead. I believe the requestor must be at least a Sergeant or Lieutenant (can't remember which), and a non-disclosure agreement must be signed. One can simply call Quantico at 703-632-1000 and ask for the BRF.

What the recent testing has shown (and this is right from the BRF in a brief to all of us FBI firearms instructors) is that the 9mm is just as effective in the testing protocol as was current .40 S&W or .45 ACP. Since the cartridges all deliver essentially the same terminal ballistics, why not use the ammunition that the average shooter can control better, deliver quicker, more accurate follow-up shots, have more rounds in the magazine, and is less expensive? Where is the downside?

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Anyone know which 9mm pistols they are going to?

If the FBI is going to the 9mm I just want to know one thing. What are they going to do with the bazillion rounds of 40 S&W they spent all that tax money on during this administration? WHAT??? They bought or ordered something like 10 years worth of ammo...

Oh yeah, I know. Sell them at a deep discount as surplus and the a few years from now but more at full price when they decided to go back to the 40. Heck, it's not their money so what do they care?

 

[zelda]

The Army is going away from the 9mm because it cant stop an Afghan terrorist without multiple hits. The 45acp can and does STOP them. l cant speak for the FBI but when l was in the Army my guys liked BIG bullets. They like em big because it keeps em ALIVE. Me too..

 

[ASA335]

Random thoughts here (you are free to disagree):

Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas (DVC) means Accuracy, Power, and Speed (a "Tip of the hat" to Jeff Cooper here). A balance between the three is needed for practical defensive hand gunning purposes. All the accuracy in the world doesn’t mean squat if you can’t deliver it with a powerful hit quickly; all the power in the world doesn’t mean squat if you can’t deliver it accurately and quickly; all the speed in the world doesn’t mean squat if you can’t deliver it accurately and powerfully.

There is no “one size fits all” in choosing a defensive handgun/ammo combo for an individual person – it is an “individual” choice.

Choose, shoot and carry the handgun/ammo combo that allows you to place the most powerful shot as precisely and as quickly as you can. A rapid and accurate hit with a .22 beats a slow or inaccurate miss with a .44 every time.

Personally, if a 9mm, with a decently designed bullet, allows me to accurately and quickly deliver telling hits on the threat better than a .45 acp does, then the 9mm is the gun I should be carrying for self defense. As it is, I shoot both my 9mm BHP and my .45 acp Government Model equally well - but my BHP does allow me to get multiple shots on target a bit faster.

For the average FBI agent (who probably is only marginally a “gun person”) I suspect that a well designed 9mm is probably a good choice – if chambered in a well designed gun and they learn to shoot it well.

 

[ASA335]

The Army is going away from the 9mm because it cant stop an Afghan terrorist without multiple hits. The 45acp can and does STOP them. l cant speak for the FBI but when l was in the Army my guys liked BIG bullets. They like em big because it keeps em ALIVE. Me too..

Agreed, but the FBI is not limited to FMJ and that is a big difference. Given FMJ as the only bullet design I'm authorized to use (I spent almost 22 years on active US Army duty), I'd choose a bigger bullet also.

 

[federali]

Maintaining Objectivity

The military went to the 9mm in order to adhere to NATO guidelines. When firing FMJ ammo, .45 ACP is likely to be more effective than 9mm simply because it is wider.

While many criticize the FBI, here and in other similar threads on the topic, it was the FBI that set the performance parameters, demanded and got enhanced bullet performance from the ammunition manufacturers. Obviously, the big boys in the business like Remington, Federal, Winchester, knew that if they could satisfy the FBI, the could satisfy the entire law enforcement community.This has benefited everyone. Most law enforcement agencies, together with CCWs, including the gentlemen posting here, are now carrying ammunition that didn't exist prior to 1986.

One seemingly insurmountable obstacle to effective shooting, or a higher hit rate, is that LEOs, be they uniformed cops or FBI agents are reacting to adversarial action. Action beats reaction. The adversary knows before the LEO that the situation is going to get hot. He has a gun or other weapon in his hand or to his shoulder while the LEO's gun may still be in the holster. The adversary holds the initial advantage and no amount of hand-wringing, emotional defense of favorite cartridges and millions of dollars in ammunition and firearms research can change that.

 

[sarg1c]

wouldn't be because DHS has warehouses full of 9MM...

 

[sigp220.45]

wouldn't be because DHS has warehouses full of 9MM...

You are right, it wouldn't. The FBI is part of DOJ, not DHS.

 

[sigp220.45]

If the FBI is going to the 9mm I just want to know one thing. What are they going to do with the bazillion rounds of 40 S&W they spent all that tax money on during this administration? WHAT??? They bought or ordered something like 10 years worth of ammo...

The ammo contracts that were in the news were from DHS. Even those were contracts, not purchases.

As for .40 ammo that we have already - we will shoot it up and then buy some more. Thousands of agents will continue to carry .40s for years to come.

 

[sigp220.45]

Did I read that article to say that agents couldn't handle .38 special rounds in a k- frame so they tried .22? Talk about wusses!!

I don't doubt you read an article that said that, but as a long-serving agent and firearms instructor I can say I've never heard such a thing and it crosses the border into ridiculous.

You may be thinking of some article from a suit 30 years ago by female agent trainees who were washed out when they couldn't qualify with the then-issue Model 13. One of their claims was that they should have been allowed to qualify with J-frame. 38s. There was never talk of using .22s.

 

[JJEH]

I'm not much surprised. The 9mm is a great round, combat proven all over the world and more affordable than others after all.

 

[Arik]

Anyone know which 9mm pistols they are going to?

If the FBI is going to the 9mm I just want to know one thing. What are they going to do with the bazillion rounds of 40 S&W they spent all that tax money on during this administration? WHAT??? They bought or ordered something like 10 years worth of ammo...

Oh yeah, I know. Sell them at a deep discount as surplus and the a few years from now but more at full price when they decided to go back to the 40. Heck, it's not their money so what do they care?

They didn't buy 10 years worth of ammo. The contract was for a fixed price for the next 5 years for X amount of ammo. Meaning they X amount each year for yesterday's price.

 

[Arik]

The Army is going away from the 9mm because it cant stop an Afghan terrorist without multiple hits. The 45acp can and does STOP them. l cant speak for the FBI but when l was in the Army my guys liked BIG bullets. They like em big because it keeps em ALIVE. Me too..

That's why I think we should do away with 308 and bring back the 45-70. BIG bullets and all!

The FBI isn't dealing with a hostile armed insurgency. They are not patrolling remote regions where bad guys carry AKs, Enfields 303, Russian Mosin Nagant 7.62x54, 8mm Mausers and rocket propelled grandes.

 

[JohnSW]

A well placed shot from a .45 beats the "spray and pray" mentality of the 9mm crowd.

It's oh-so-easy to get perfect shot placement when you're filled with adrenaline and the target is moving.

 

[JJEH]

If you need 17 more, your probably dead. A well placed shot from a .45 beats the "spray and pray" mentality of the 9mm crowd. Why do you think the M-16 was made to shot 3 rounds only?

With all due respect sir, I dislike being put into this category only b/c I like my 17-round magazines in my 9mm pistol.

Having a firearm with less capacity doesn't automatically make me a better shot. If it was that way all the pro shooter would carry a single-shot handgun, right?!

 

[Checkman]

I carry the Federal HST 124 grain +P JHP in my Glock 19. It's the alternate pistol with my department. Most officers carry the G21. They carry the Federal .45 ACP HST 230 grain +P JHP.

As a firearms instructor I've seen the same phenomenon that is described in the FBI report. Many officers are not gun people and they shoot the 9mm better. A few officers have quietly switched to the Glock 19 because they realized the G21 was just too much pistol for them. For various reasons.Police officers are not restricted to FMJ bullets like the military so that comparison isn't valid anymore.

The "spray and pray" myth is still being trotted out by the anti-9mm crowd. Research has shown that folks carrying revolvers or 45 ACP pistols might just be just as likely to blast away in a firefight as somebody carrying a 9mm. But I guess it's a classic and many loves a classic.

I love this argument. I'm 46 and it's been apart of my life since I started breathing. In a world where things change every five minutes it's good to see some consistency. May it go on for another 100 years. I'm serious.

 

[Buford57]

So which is REALLY better - flintlock or percussion?