Interesting decision by the F.B.I.

[hkcavalier]

If you need 17 more, your probably dead. A well placed shot from a .45 beats the "spray and pray" mentality of the 9mm crowd. Why do you think the M-16 was made to shot 3 rounds only?

This theory that people that carry 9mm simply spray in the general direction of the target, while 1911 guys put aimed shots directly center mass and score consistent CNS hits has never played out in practice.

A poorly trained shooter will empty his magazine at a target, whether it's 7, 17, 30, or a 100 round drum.

I've had the pleasure to talk and shoot with guys who had to rely on a pistol and they had no issues with a 9mm. Many rely on the Mozambique drill (2 center mass torso, one to the brain box) with a pistol which gives 3 chances to score a CNS hit and incapacitate the target. You can triple tap a lot more targets with a double stack 9mm. This is how I was taught with both the M16A2 (at CQB range) and the M9.

 

[zelda]

So the FBI says handgun stopping power is only a ''myth'' and is going to the 9mm.

A couple months ago the US MILITARY announces they are dropping the 9mm because it lacks sufficient ''stopping power'' due to lessons learned in Afghanistan and lraq. They are returning to the .45acp...


l know fact. Not myth. "SIZE MATTERS''

 

[DR505]

I attended a Hostage Negotiators class put on by the FBI in 1983. They were just trading in their 9mms for .40 callibers & 10mms. The science hasn't changed since then. Those guys just like to have new guns. (and cars, and planes, and boats, and suits, and sun-glasses…)

Sorry, that is just incorrect.

 

[DR505]

The FBI being the premier law enforcement agency in the United States tends to add to the credibility of all they say and do .. in that light .. it is not just FBI agents who are concerned with this ... there are a lot of people who really believe the FBI has studied this and applied the science to come to the conclusion ... such is not really the case here is it? .. and honestly speaking, there is a world of difference between what the street cop needs vs. the detective/special agent and the home owner

and in my way of thinking .. I don't think spending money for premium ammo and firearms for the FBI is wasteful .. what I find more disturbing is the political shifts within that once great organization and the propaganda piece they are now pushing - these guys have a tough job and they deserve the best firearms and ammo my tax dollars can buy.

You have obviously never been to the Ballistic Research Facility at Quantico, have you? I have...many times. I've been through the facility and watched the type of testing conducted. Your assertions are patently false and have no basis in fact. Any US Law Enforcement Agency can have access to the data...they need to make an official request on agency letterhead. I believe the requestor must be at least a Sergeant or Lieutenant (can't remember which), and a non-disclosure agreement must be signed. One can simply call Quantico at 703-632-1000 and ask for the BRF.

What the recent testing has shown (and this is right from the BRF in a brief to all of us FBI firearms instructors) is that the 9mm is just as effective in the testing protocol as was current .40 S&W or .45 ACP. Since the cartridges all deliver essentially the same terminal ballistics, why not use the ammunition that the average shooter can control better, deliver quicker, more accurate follow-up shots, have more rounds in the magazine, and is less expensive? Where is the downside?

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Anyone know which 9mm pistols they are going to?

If the FBI is going to the 9mm I just want to know one thing. What are they going to do with the bazillion rounds of 40 S&W they spent all that tax money on during this administration? WHAT??? They bought or ordered something like 10 years worth of ammo...

Oh yeah, I know. Sell them at a deep discount as surplus and the a few years from now but more at full price when they decided to go back to the 40. Heck, it's not their money so what do they care?

 

[zelda]

The Army is going away from the 9mm because it cant stop an Afghan terrorist without multiple hits. The 45acp can and does STOP them. l cant speak for the FBI but when l was in the Army my guys liked BIG bullets. They like em big because it keeps em ALIVE. Me too..

 

[ASA335]

Random thoughts here (you are free to disagree):

Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas (DVC) means Accuracy, Power, and Speed (a "Tip of the hat" to Jeff Cooper here). A balance between the three is needed for practical defensive hand gunning purposes. All the accuracy in the world doesn't mean squat if you can't deliver it with a powerful hit quickly; all the power in the world doesn't mean squat if you can't deliver it accurately and quickly; all the speed in the world doesn't mean squat if you can't deliver it accurately and powerfully.

There is no "one size fits all" in choosing a defensive handgun/ammo combo for an individual person – it is an "individual" choice.

Choose, shoot and carry the handgun/ammo combo that allows you to place the most powerful shot as precisely and as quickly as you can. A rapid and accurate hit with a .22 beats a slow or inaccurate miss with a .44 every time.

Personally, if a 9mm, with a decently designed bullet, allows me to accurately and quickly deliver telling hits on the threat better than a .45 acp does, then the 9mm is the gun I should be carrying for self defense. As it is, I shoot both my 9mm BHP and my .45 acp Government Model equally well - but my BHP does allow me to get multiple shots on target a bit faster.

For the average FBI agent (who probably is only marginally a "gun person") I suspect that a well designed 9mm is probably a good choice – if chambered in a well designed gun and they learn to shoot it well.

 

[ASA335]

The Army is going away from the 9mm because it cant stop an Afghan terrorist without multiple hits. The 45acp can and does STOP them. l cant speak for the FBI but when l was in the Army my guys liked BIG bullets. They like em big because it keeps em ALIVE. Me too..

Agreed, but the FBI is not limited to FMJ and that is a big difference. Given FMJ as the only bullet design I'm authorized to use (I spent almost 22 years on active US Army duty), I'd choose a bigger bullet also.

 

[federali]

Maintaining Objectivity

The military went to the 9mm in order to adhere to NATO guidelines. When firing FMJ ammo, .45 ACP is likely to be more effective than 9mm simply because it is wider.

While many criticize the FBI, here and in other similar threads on the topic, it was the FBI that set the performance parameters, demanded and got enhanced bullet performance from the ammunition manufacturers. Obviously, the big boys in the business like Remington, Federal, Winchester, knew that if they could satisfy the FBI, the could satisfy the entire law enforcement community.This has benefited everyone. Most law enforcement agencies, together with CCWs, including the gentlemen posting here, are now carrying ammunition that didn't exist prior to 1986.

One seemingly insurmountable obstacle to effective shooting, or a higher hit rate, is that LEOs, be they uniformed cops or FBI agents are reacting to adversarial action. Action beats reaction. The adversary knows before the LEO that the situation is going to get hot. He has a gun or other weapon in his hand or to his shoulder while the LEO's gun may still be in the holster. The adversary holds the initial advantage and no amount of hand-wringing, emotional defense of favorite cartridges and millions of dollars in ammunition and firearms research can change that.

 

[sarg1c]

wouldn't be because DHS has warehouses full of 9MM...

 

[sigp220.45]

wouldn't be because DHS has warehouses full of 9MM...

You are right, it wouldn't. The FBI is part of DOJ, not DHS.

 

[sigp220.45]

If the FBI is going to the 9mm I just want to know one thing. What are they going to do with the bazillion rounds of 40 S&W they spent all that tax money on during this administration? WHAT??? They bought or ordered something like 10 years worth of ammo...

The ammo contracts that were in the news were from DHS. Even those were contracts, not purchases.

As for .40 ammo that we have already - we will shoot it up and then buy some more. Thousands of agents will continue to carry .40s for years to come.

 

[sigp220.45]

Did I read that article to say that agents couldn't handle .38 special rounds in a k- frame so they tried .22? Talk about wusses!!

I don't doubt you read an article that said that, but as a long-serving agent and firearms instructor I can say I've never heard such a thing and it crosses the border into ridiculous.

You may be thinking of some article from a suit 30 years ago by female agent trainees who were washed out when they couldn't qualify with the then-issue Model 13. One of their claims was that they should have been allowed to qualify with J-frame. 38s. There was never talk of using .22s.

 

[JJEH]

I'm not much surprised. The 9mm is a great round, combat proven all over the world and more affordable than others after all.

 

[Arik]

Anyone know which 9mm pistols they are going to?

If the FBI is going to the 9mm I just want to know one thing. What are they going to do with the bazillion rounds of 40 S&W they spent all that tax money on during this administration? WHAT??? They bought or ordered something like 10 years worth of ammo...

Oh yeah, I know. Sell them at a deep discount as surplus and the a few years from now but more at full price when they decided to go back to the 40. Heck, it's not their money so what do they care?

They didn't buy 10 years worth of ammo. The contract was for a fixed price for the next 5 years for X amount of ammo. Meaning they X amount each year for yesterday's price.

 

[Arik]

The Army is going away from the 9mm because it cant stop an Afghan terrorist without multiple hits. The 45acp can and does STOP them. l cant speak for the FBI but when l was in the Army my guys liked BIG bullets. They like em big because it keeps em ALIVE. Me too..

That's why I think we should do away with 308 and bring back the 45-70. BIG bullets and all!

The FBI isn't dealing with a hostile armed insurgency. They are not patrolling remote regions where bad guys carry AKs, Enfields 303, Russian Mosin Nagant 7.62x54, 8mm Mausers and rocket propelled grandes.

 

[JohnSW]

A well placed shot from a .45 beats the "spray and pray" mentality of the 9mm crowd.

It's oh-so-easy to get perfect shot placement when you're filled with adrenaline and the target is moving.

 

[JJEH]

If you need 17 more, your probably dead. A well placed shot from a .45 beats the "spray and pray" mentality of the 9mm crowd. Why do you think the M-16 was made to shot 3 rounds only?

With all due respect sir, I dislike being put into this category only b/c I like my 17-round magazines in my 9mm pistol.

Having a firearm with less capacity doesn't automatically make me a better shot. If it was that way all the pro shooter would carry a single-shot handgun, right?!

 

[Checkman]

I carry the Federal HST 124 grain +P JHP in my Glock 19. It's the alternate pistol with my department. Most officers carry the G21. They carry the Federal .45 ACP HST 230 grain +P JHP.

As a firearms instructor I've seen the same phenomenon that is described in the FBI report. Many officers are not gun people and they shoot the 9mm better. A few officers have quietly switched to the Glock 19 because they realized the G21 was just too much pistol for them. For various reasons.Police officers are not restricted to FMJ bullets like the military so that comparison isn't valid anymore.

The "spray and pray" myth is still being trotted out by the anti-9mm crowd. Research has shown that folks carrying revolvers or 45 ACP pistols might just be just as likely to blast away in a firefight as somebody carrying a 9mm. But I guess it's a classic and many loves a classic.

I love this argument. I'm 46 and it's been apart of my life since I started breathing. In a world where things change every five minutes it's good to see some consistency. May it go on for another 100 years. I'm serious.

 

[Buford57]

So which is REALLY better - flintlock or percussion?

 

[clang444]

what goes around, comes around.

or maybe

what goes a round, come a round

 

[walnutred]

So which is REALLY better - flintlock or percussion?

I've always preferred the flintlock. Where I live I can find suitable flints on the ground. I've yet to find a suitable percussion cap on the ground.

 

[clang444]

sorry duplicate post due to computer hiccup

 

[Checkman]

So which is REALLY better - flintlock or percussion?

Matchlock. More reliable.

 

[SuperMan]

Don't know where to begin....guess with caliber.

There is nothing wrong with .35 caliber guns in LE...they work...but there is an "if" and that "if" has proven to be velocity. The standard by which all other defensive pistol rounds are judged is the .357 Magnum using the 125 grain IHP bullet at a muzzle velocity of 1400+- fps which can easily be attained in a 4" barrel. Drop the muzzle velocity below 1350 and the street effectiveness has been shown to go down as we are now down into the high end of some 115 grain 9mm.

Using a 125 grain bullet seems, as far as shooting humans goes, to be the correct balance of enough weight for adequate penetration and attainable muzzle velocity for just about guarantied expansion. Most bullets between 90-110 grains often fail to penetrate deeply enough even when driven to significantly higher velocities and bullets between 140-160 don't usually attain the velocity necessary to expand AND they have significantly more recoil than the 125s....this is in both pistols and revolvers unless one is talking about something like the .38 Special or 147 9mms.

And this is why the .357 SIG has been so successful a street round. It runs a 124/125 grain bullet at 1350+- fps. The Texas DPS adopted the round in the late 1990s and in their first 8 shooting there was 6 one shot stops, 7 suspects died at the scene of the shooting and the last died in the hospital. One of the shootings required shooting through the door of an 18-wheeler cab. This was with the 124 Speer Gold Dot HPs. No 9mm load can run a 124 grain bullet much over 1250 and there are only a few 115s that will run over 1300.

125s with a properly constructed bullet like a Gold Dot will also hold together through hard cover like a door, windshield glass or sheet steel. 147 subsonics garnered the reputation of over penetration in soft tissue and under penetration of hard cover. This is nothing new as the .38 Special has been doing the same for decades before the 9mm 147s came a long. 158 grain bullet at 900-950 vs a 147 at 950-1000 fps...and the difference is?? I made this comparison after the FBI and many LE agencies went to this round after the 1986 FBI Miami Shootout and made the prediction this round would do no better than a .38 Special... I remember reading an article in one of LE publications about 10 years ago with the then head of training for the FBI. The interviewer asked him why the FBI was no longer using the 147SS and the answer was very short..."it had not lived up to our expectations". And that was all that was said.

Bullet testing..Lab Rat Mentality... Ever go to an autopsy...ever seen the the actual bullets they dig out of people... I've seen what at the time were some of the best "rated" defensive rounds that the recovered bullet looked like it could have been reloaded. And I've seen others that the "experts" said could never work well because they fragmented in their test media perfectly expanded...why...

Start with the test media....I know of no normal human being made up of 18" of homogenous material. Unless you are obese you can poke yourself in the rib area and there is 1-2" of meat between you and the bones...and then what is one the other side...a large cavity filled not with ballistic gelatin but moisture and air filled lungs which a bullet without adequate velocity to expand the lead/jacket will pass through the same size it entered... If the bullet isn't violently expanding at this point it isn't going to do any damage beyond the permanent wound cavity it made.

A 150# deer isn't much different than a 150# human in the amount of meat in the chest area. Last year one of my hunting partners shot a nice doe that was 110# dressed through the lungs broadside at 30 yards. The bullet was a 158 Hornady XTP out of a 6.5" S&W 27-2 at probably 1300-1400 fps. The bullet hit the deer just behind the shoulder just about square center through the lungs. The deer ran directly towards his tree stand and then turned strait away as it passed under the tree. The next shot DA broke a front leg and the deer went down about 15 yards from the tree. As it tried to get up the next shot was between the shoulder blades into the spine. The initial round had been been complete penetration with no indication of expansion through the lungs...just a small hole out the other side. Deer was dead on its feet...just like Platt was in the FBI shooting...but dead isn't want you want, you want down....now.

The other problem with Lab Rat mentality is they never as far as I have seen ever interviewed the officer involved in a shooting to find out what the reaction of the "shootee" was from the time of impact to the time of incapacitation. They deem as successful only the fact that the guy died, here he is on the table with one of our recommended .38 Special +P 158 LHPs nicely mushroomed inside.....and the rest of the story. When the suspect pointed a handgun at the officers involved both fired. One hit one missed from 5 yards away. They both ducked out of the doorway from which they fired. The next thing they heard was a womans voice from a back bedroom..."what's all that noise out there...". The stootee, who was still standing in the middle of the livingroom gun in hand replied..."the police done shot me...". Then calmly walked over to the couch, sat down, put the gun down and shortly thereafter expired.... None of which was noted in the coroners report.

Then there are all the tactically successful shootings where the hostilities ceased but because he didn't die there is no forensic report. So there are tons of shootings out there that don't go into a data base somewhere whether hostilities immediately ceased or not....then it becomes what..."anecdotal evidence"...which because it doesn't fit in a test tube and can't be replicated has to be discounted.

I was in LE for 30 years, 11 of which were with Dallas PD in the 1970s and 80s. At that time we averaged 80 gun fights a year. The hit rate was 80+% and close to half of those hit died. At the time the national average was 29% hit rate. The last one I saw about 10 years ago was 19%. Rounds fired back then was 2.7....last one I saw was 7. No clue what it is today...

The bottom line of all this as I am sure I have bored you enough...no .35/9mm bullet at 1000 fps that will expand all the time will prove to have adequate penetration...and any 147 that will penetrate won't expand enough to incapacitate fast enough so the shooter won't stand a chance of getting hurt....except in a test tube....

Bob

 

[zelda]

Bob-Your next to last paragraph shows lack of marksmanship in law enforcement. No amount of lab studies will make up for practice at the range

 

[SuperMan]

The guy who missed was a second week rookie.... The guy who hit was one of my best friends and far from a "shooter", yet was his second successful gunfight.

A Sargent on the department in the mid 1970s failed qualification and was heading back to his substation to notify the lieutenant he had to go back for remedial training. He stopped for coffee on the way, interrupted a robbery on progress and killed the suspect...so much for quals...

Gunfighting is 90% mental and 10% ability...all the range time in the world won't help you in a gunfight without the right gunfighter mentality...

Bob

 

[sigp220.45]

I remember reading an article in one of LE publications about 10 years ago with the then head of training for the FBI. The interviewer asked him why the FBI was no longer using the 147SS and the answer was very short..."it had not lived up to our expectations". And that was all that was said.

We still use 147 grain subsonic 9mms, and have since shortly after the 4/11/86 shooting. Not sure what guy you're talking about. Maybe it was Corporal Ed Sanow impersonating an FBI spokesman.

 

[sigp220.45]

I think he was poking the bear there........

I thought of that, but after some of the doozies in this thread I answered on instinct.

 

[chaparrito]

Oh great. Once the word on this gets out there won't be any 9mm at WalMart again. The nervous nellies will buy it all up. Sure glad I reload mine.