Irresponsible to carry a revolver to protect others?

[fredj338]

^^^ you are shooting over 6,000 rounds a year. And shoot daily. Of course with that proficiency and dedication and discipline the results show. And that is to be respected. Like I said I would be willing to bet 75% of the people who frequently carry if not EDC even come close to 500 rounds a year. You are shooting more than that in two weeks!

You are right that they dont have near the accuracy as someone of your caliber. But that is like comparing the free throw percentage of Air Jordan to your average joe six pack playground B-ball player.

Not saying that most people don't train enough. I would agree. But that is the reality.

Ok I'll say it, avg person that carries a gun, ccw or leo, is barely competent, much less capable. I shoot an idpa match almost every week. I run a sq of 10-15 shooters. I see at least one new shooter weekly. Many of these shooters are leo & ccw, most are just competent, can deliver aimed fire out to 15y but with zero speed.
It takes 10s of 1000s of rds a year to be a really good shooter, at high soeed then still 100s a month to maintain that high level. Maybe 15% of those carrying guns are in that upper teir skill level where they can deliver shots on demand every time, any time. Yes that takes time, money & dedication to get better everytime you are practicing.

 

[jeeps]

Practice,shoot it ,do drills with ,draw it. Talking on the web does not cut it. Use it,shoot it ,hit with it. I do not care what you use , I want good solid hits.

 

[m1garand_man]

I carry a p226 because it's what I am proficient with that I can also conceal.

I'm way more accurate with my m29 or my 7.5" saa but those aren't concealable and the quickest way to get crazy looks in public is to have a large frame revolvery on your hip. I've done it and didn't like the reactions I got. Now I know how well endowed females feel, "my eyes are up here buddy".

On the other hand I'm fully confident I can get aimed head shots with my carry gun at 15y and body shots out to at least 30. I can do the same at double those distances with the wheel guns.

 

[Mister X]

Considering the odds of being involved in a defensive shooting and the fact that people with absolutely no training very often successfully defend themselves with firearms everyday in this country, I think most people interested only in self-defense would question the need for such extensive training that some are advocating.

You are much more likely to need to use unarmed skills in self-defense throughout your life and such skills are much harder to learn and effectively apply, but how many people put in the time and training or have the physical ability to do so.

I had exceptional natural ability in martial arts and trained at least 4 hours a day all through high school, so it wasn't a surprise to anyone when I was recruited for Olympic competition and then asked to participate in the UFC.

Self-defense was my stated primary goal and I loved to train and couldn't understand anyone not feeling the same way. I remember I lost a lot of students in the early days who viewed me as a fanatic and looking back they were absolutely right. These were everyday people coming to me wanting to learn some basic self-defense skills in a safe environment just in case and I didn't provide that for them. Looking back, I wasn't even really teaching self-defense, I was teaching street-fighting. There is a very big difference.

I think many defensive shooting instructors take things too far as well and are teaching from a military combat or law enforcement perspective rather than true self-defense. Again, there is a huge difference. Since we are talking security, I think law enforcement lessons apply to a much greater degree, but it is still very easy to carry things too far and lose perspective. An enthusiast loves to train, practice, shoot and compete all the time, but that doesn't mean everybody does or that it is necessary.

 

[sousana]

^^^ you are shooting over 6,000 rounds a year. And shoot daily. Of course with that proficiency and dedication and discipline the results show. And that is to be respected. Like I said I would be willing to bet 75% of the people who frequently carry if not EDC even come close to 500 rounds a year. You are shooting more than that in two weeks!

You are right that they dont have near the accuracy as someone of your caliber. But that is like comparing the free throw percentage of Air Jordan to your average joe six pack playground B-ball player.

Not saying that most people don't train enough. I would agree. But that is the reality.

IMHO, I think it's incumbent upon any and all concealed carriers to be more proficient than the average joe. I know it's expensive to shoot, but I also know, should you get into an altercation where deadly force is called on, then a lawyer will cost far more than practice ammo. That said, for me, if I am going to carry on the street, I want to be able to hit my target under any condition with the least amount of chance of a round going where I don't want it to go.

Were I Dictator extraordinaire, I would require all concealed carry holders to qualify using the USMC qualification course every 6 months with a min score of 240 or better to maintain your license. But, that's this dictators dreams.

 

[cbore]

Agree with both

Since shooting incidents usually seem to involve a single perpetrator, rather than a pack of them, I think I'd be okay with a revolver. Even a 5-shot one.

I am almost a revolver man almost only so agree. Never felt short with 5 shot and always carry another 5 in a speed loader.

Shark Bite advice what ever you can shoot well I agree.

Me I can put 5 rounds from a J frame in a pie plate at 10 yds. rapid fire any day. Makes me happy and fell comfortable,

 

[fredj338]

Considering the odds of being involved in a defensive shooting and the fact that people with absolutely no training very often successfully defend themselves with firearms everyday in this country, I think most people interested only in self-defense would question the need for such extensive training that some are advocating.

You are much more likely to need to use unarmed skills in self-defense throughout your life and such skills are much harder to learn and effectively apply, but how many people put in the time and training or have the physical ability to do so.

I had exceptional natural ability in martial arts and trained at least 4 hours a day all through high school, so it wasn't a surprise to anyone when I was recruited for Olympic competition and then asked to participate in the UFC.

Self-defense was my stated primary goal and I loved to train and couldn't understand anyone not feeling the same way. I remember I lost a lot of students in the early days who viewed me as a fanatic and looking back they were absolutely right. These were everyday people coming to me wanting to learn some basic self-defense skills in a safe environment just in case and I didn't provide that for them. Looking back, I wasn't even really teaching self-defense, I was teaching street-fighting. There is a very big difference.

I think many defensive shooting instructors take things too far as well and are teaching from a military combat or law enforcement perspective rather than true self-defense. Again, there is a huge difference. Since we are talking security, I think law enforcement lessons apply to a much greater degree, but it is still very easy to carry things too far and lose perspective. An enthusiast loves to train, practice, shoot and compete all the time, but that doesn't mean everybody does or that it is necessary.

I hear this all the time, but reality, most people defending themselves never have to pull the trigger. Those unskilled that do & survive, more by luck & the bad guy being even more poorly skilled.

 

[CH4]

I am not too familiar with NJ CC laws, but with the church's permission you should be able to CC on private property. You may have to carry from home to church in a locked container, but once on private property you should be clear to CC. Just guessing. That said, carry what you are most competent with.

 

[Whitwabit]

I would be very hesitant to carry a 5 shot revolver .. but a 7 or 8 shot
I think would be a better choice ..

In a confrontation with a single robber say at a gas pump the need would be different then a home invasion where 3 or more Perps break in to a home ..

From my experience (I am in my mid 60's) police are much worse shooters then many non police shooters .. Their targets don't have much of a pattern to them .. as the spray is over the whole target including missing paper completely !! I have only seen a couple put his rounds in about a 4 inch circle and one was a deputy sheriff .. they shoot between 1 and about 4 times a year where those I know and my self shoot multiple times either weekly or monthly .. I shoot 50 to 75 or more times what they shoot in a year .. 200 verses over 3000 rounds for me .. other friends who reload shoot even more rounds then I do .. just because of the amount of practice we should be more proficient ..

 

[adwjc]

From my experience (I am in my mid 60's) police are much worse shooters then many non police shooters .. Their targets don't have much of a pattern to them .. as the spray is over the whole target including missing paper completely !! I have only seen a couple put his rounds in about a 4 inch circle and one was a deputy sheriff .. they shoot between 1 and about 4 times a year where those I know and my self shoot multiple times either weekly or monthly .. I shoot 50 to 75 or more times what they shoot in a year .. 200 verses over 3000 rounds for me .. other friends who reload shoot even more rounds then I do .. just because of the amount of practice we should be more proficient ..

A little judgmental there Whitwabit, how many of your targets move around and shoot back?

 

[Jenrick]

From my experience (I am in my mid 60's) police are much worse shooters then many non police shooters .. Their targets don't have much of a pattern to them .. as the spray is over the whole target including missing paper completely !! I have only seen a couple put his rounds in about a 4 inch circle and one was a deputy sheriff .. they shoot between 1 and about 4 times a year where those I know and my self shoot multiple times either weekly or monthly .. I shoot 50 to 75 or more times what they shoot in a year .. 200 verses over 3000 rounds for me .. other friends who reload shoot even more rounds then I do .. just because of the amount of practice we should be more proficient ..

Remember anyone on this forum is at the far end of the bell curve for civilian gun ownership too. I would agree that a civilian firearms enthusiast probably shoots more often and better then your average officer (I'm a full time LEO, and just did 4 years on our range staff). However your average civilian gun owner probably shoots less often then your average officer, which I would guess translates to less proficiency. On the flip side, some officers are serious shooters just as some civilians are.

If we took 25 random civilian gun owners (not self selecting mind you) and had them shoot a qual course I think we'd see the same thing we see from officers.

So with that said:

Using a firearm in defense of others changes the equation a bit. Using a particular type of gun with a small ammo capacity does not magically allow the end user the ability to be cool under fire and exercise the fundamentals. Being highly proficient in the gun and confident in their abilities with it, will allow for a positive application of the fundamentals under high stress. For most people this is not a revolver, for some it is.

I've got a few more thoughts I'll add after I finish off the chore list for the weekend.

 

[American1776]

Back when LEO's carried revolvers, they were not distinctly disadvantaged *because the bad guys they faced most likely had revolvers too*. Both sides had to "make their 6 shots count".

Today, most bad guys will have Glock 17s or a Long gun with 30 rounds of 5.56. When choosing my own pistol to carry, I do not want to start out by being disadvantaged by having 5-8 rounds in the gun when the bad guys will have 18-30 rounds in their guns.

There are many documented accounts of LEO's (and even armed citizens), who when the balloon when up, had to fire 10,12, or even dozens of rounds before the fight was over. Why semi-automatics are used in law enforcement

Statistically, we won't have to fire that many rounds. But as long as I'm carrying a pistol to begin with, why carry a heavy one that holds 6, when I can carry one that weighs the same and holds more than twice the cartridges.

 

[Kurusu]

Back when LEO's carried revolvers, they were not distinctly disadvantaged *because the bad guys they faced most likely had revolvers too*. Both sides had to "make their 6 shots count".

Today, most bad guys will have Glock 17s or a Long gun with 30 rounds of 5.56. When choosing my own pistol to carry, I do not want to start out by being disadvantaged by having 5-8 rounds in the gun when the bad guys will have 18-30 rounds in their guns.

There are many documented accounts of LEO's (and even armed citizens), who when the balloon when up, had to fire 10,12, or even dozens of rounds before the fight was over. Why semi-automatics are used in law enforcement

Statistically, we won't have to fire that many rounds. But as long as I'm carrying a pistol to begin with, why carry a heavy one that holds 6, when I can carry one that weighs the same and holds more than twice the cartridges.

Yeah! Sure!

1 Clyde Barrow
2 From Dillinger

 

[fredj338]

A little judgmental there Whitwabit, how many of your targets move around and shoot back?

My training involves shooting while moving & moving targets & moving while shooting moving targets, oh & night shoots at least twice a year. Being shot at, old old line. If you cant hit poop standing still with no bullets flying, you are not suddenly becoming a combat master when the poop hits the fan. Reality, avg ccw or avg leo suck with their gun skills. Thankfully, most will never have the need. We have seen what trained professionals dont do in Broward Cty.

 

[otis24]

My opinion is that concealed carry is managed risk. You think about what type of risk you are likely to encounter and prepare accordingly. As a general rule, I'm fine with a five shot J frame based on where I live, my lifestyle, etc...If I lived in a higher risk area or had a job/lifestyle that was riskier, that would affect my choice of weapon both in terms of revolver/semi-auto, capacity and caliber. In a situation where an attacker may target a group like a church intent on mass murder, he may have body armour. In that case, I would want as many rounds as possible to stop, distract, or otherwise slow down the perp so that as many people as possible could escape.

 

[Whitwabit]

A little judgmental there Whitwabit, how many of your targets move around and shoot back?

Not judgmental at all .. I said it was my experience ..

But if a LEO cant hit a standing target how would I or anyone else expect him to hit a moving one ???

 

[Wise_A]

I'll just leave this right here.

Austin cop's sure shot stopped crazed gunman | Fox News

If I equated you with idiots I see at my range, WW, I'm guessing I'd probably insult you.

Now, which do you think is better--a cop that's really good at shooting people, or a cop that's really good at, you know, the things cops actually do 99.99% of the time? Which is frequently "resolve situations without shooting people, where people the people in question are trying to make us shoot them".

 

[keith44spl]

Boys, it don't matter how many Xs ya can put on a B-21 on a static range...

It's how many you can put on the threat that's moving and trying
to eliminate you and anyone else that comes into their line of fire.

If one can't move and fight at the same time...Well then, ya better
be really lucky or have a really good relationship with your Maker

It's a thinking on your feet kinda thing.

Owning a pair of boxing gloves doesn't make one a boxer,
anymore than owning a gun makes one a gunfighter.

Just my humble opine, for this has been my personal experience in this ol life.

.

To the OP's question....Carry whatever you think you can live with.

.

 

[crazyphil]

If carrying a revolver makes me irresponsible, in my best
Frank Sinatra voice: "CALL ME IRRESPONSIBLE"

 

[American1776]

The only irresponsibility is not having something to protect yourself.
They have lied to the public for decades, "to protect and serve" was nothing more than a marketing gimmick. And as the Supreme Court has ruled and on more than one occasion the police forces do not have to protect you leaving the assumption you are responsible for your own well being.

If you are good with a revolver go for it. Not one case over the last several years has anybody even confronted these mass shooters with a gun, not one time. So who is to say a revolver could not be effective.


However I would also encourage your group to get educated, trained and armed themselves, that's a heck of a responsibility to be taking on being responsible for their safety. You are a better person than I, cause I'm not carrying a gun to protect anyone else out here but myself, it will be bad enough trying to defend my actions without the ones you protected trying to sue you in court as well.

That notion goes back to a time it became law in some jurisdictions to render medical aid if trained. And several people being sued that they caused more harm.
A lady friend had told me and she was a nurse if I see a car accident they'll be lucky if I even call 911.

Wait until they get all the guns out of America and we are left with stones and a sticks against the jacked-up ex-con weight lifter. And the police selling their services on the side.

A lot of people don't know this about how the fire depts. use to respond in America, you had to pay and have your house marked or they let it burn to the ground.
Some will find out real quick like who the police really serve in America. Of course those 'special ones' will be allowed to keep their guns don't ya know.

1. Sutherland Springs church, Nov. 2017: Steven Williford grabbed his legally owned AR-15 and confronted the shooter. Whillford took aimed fire and shot the shooter where his vest didn't protect.
2. 1997, Pearl Mississippi: a principal used his .45 auto to stop Luke Woodlam, who had killed 2 students and was about to kill more.
3) 2007: Jeane Assam shot and killed mass shooter Matthew Murray in a church in Colorado
4)TN, 2017, an armed citizen (usher) stopped a masked gunman inside a church who had already shot several people.

There are plenty of cases of armed citizens confronting mass shooters.