It appears that there's a problem with the 15/22!

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didactic

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Project Appleseed has just initiated a ban/suspension, until further notice, on the use of M&P 15/22 rifles at their shoots.

It seems that there have been some incidents, including one that caused an injury (blessedly not serious, but requiring medical attention). There have been "out of battery" discharges, and "fire on trigger reset" incidents. Probably involving admittedly dirty rifles, but on a 400+ round weekend shoot, rifles will get dirty. Might they have already been somewhat dirty before that started? Sure thing.

But in any case, the Appleseed powers-that-be have made the decision, pending resolution of the problem.

No brickbats thrown at anyone. Contacts with the factory are underway. I have one of these myself and like it, but have had problems. Stay tuned for developments.
 
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Is this with the new sport 15-22 the latest model? Because i have the old version and have never had any issues, such as OOB or trigger issues?
 
No notes of it being any particular model. Mine is an older one, plain vanilla, not Performance Center or any other special model. And I've experienced occasional misfires (attempting to fire out of battery?) and doubling (firing on trigger reset?).
The problems don't seem to affect every rifle, but are apparently common enough that Appleseed has gotten several reports and has connected enough dots to take this (hopefully!) temporary action.
 
It would be nice to know if it is new or old model, since I have shot the old models suppressed, fast and dirty and have never had a problem. I have only cleaned one and that was after 1000+ rounds. Thank You for the info and warning. Be Safe,
 
Hopefully it won't be a permanent suspension and the problems get resolved. My M&P 15-22 has never had the problems they are talking about so I guess I'm lucky.
 
My problems might have been from a somewhat dirty rifle, but not super-grungy, and were not due to any modification. Point taken as appropriate.

But this is a TEMPORARY step taken by Appleseed, no insults intended to any rifle or any person.

Let's just let this work out, and keep our cool. It is fervently to be hoped that a resolution will come quickly.

I really LIKE my 15/22. It's a great understudy gun, as well as fun to shoot in its own right. And the adjustable stock makes it a great piece for (supervised as appropriate for their age and experience) youngsters.
 
BREAKING: M&P 15/22s Banned At Appleseed Events After Out Of Battery and “Run Away” Discharges – Bearing Arms

To: All Appleseed Instructors

Subject: TEMPORARY BAN ON SMITH & WESSON M&P 15/22 USE AT APPLESEED

EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE USE OF SMITH AND WESSON M&P 15/22’S AT AN APPLESEED IS HEREBY BANNED UNTIL SMITH & WESSON FORMALLY INVESTIGATES THE PROBLEM AND ISSUES AN OFFICIAL CORRECTIVE ACTION. THE AOC WILL NOTIFY THE CADRE WHEN THIS BAN IS LIFTED.

The AOC has received a rash of reports regarding safety issues with the Smith & Wesson M&P 15/22, including a shooter getting injured as a result of an out-of-battery discharge (see reports below).

As responsible Instructors, we have a duty to maintain safety at our events. If we know a rifle to be potentially unsafe, we shouldn’t allow it on the line at all.

At this time the least risk course of action would be to exclude the Smith & Wesson M&P 15/22 from future events until Smith & Wesson formally investigates the problem and issues an official corrective action.

REPORTS TO BE AWARE OF:

Bowie, MD: A shooter (RHS) firing a M&P 15/22 with Remington 22 Thunderbolt Ammo had an out of battery discharge. A Metal Fragment hit the arm of a shooter next to her (LHS) in her right arm. She, did not realize that she had been hit with fragments at first and continued to fire until blood begin to pool (time est. 11:10am) feeling only a warm sting. Instructors rendered first aid applying a compression type bandage to stop the bleeding. Shoot boss suggested that she go to local hospital or emergency clinic. She was able to drive herself to the hospital. They took x-rays of the area and found a fragment deep in her arm. Hospital suggested that she see an Orthopedic surgeon or her Doctor on Monday to have the object removed but surgery should not be required.

Casper, WY: This past weekend we had a student show up with a 15/22. She had been using it pretty regular, since she had also attended our recent boot camp. After about 8 sets of squares, she began to notice the malfunction. Upon careful observation, it was noticed that as she reset the sear the rifle would discharge. We called cease fire and immediately removed this rifle from the line, and replaced it with a loaner.

Once off line, it was field stripped and upon inspection, found that not only was it firing at reset, but also when the safety was engaged. Further inspection found that the trigger pin and the hammer pin were both loose. They both had moved about 1/16th of an inch to the right. Just enough to be loose on the left side of the receiver. The pins were gently hammered back in and function checks performed. After about 3 sets, the hammer pin slid out again.

The rifle was reassembled and tagged out, student was told that 1) the rifle needed to be seen by her gunsmith; or 2) (my recommendation) sent back to the manufacturer for repair/replacement.

Michigan Senior Instructor: The SI wanted to shoot an AQT with his 15/22, but he needed to verify the zero. Another instructor volunteered to take the rifle over to another range, put it on a bench, and confirm zero. While shooting the first string, after pulling the trigger, the extractor shot out the ejection port along with the case and the extractor spring. The case was retrieved and it was observed to be split down the side, indicating that the rifle fired out of battery. Fortunately, the instructor was alone on the range, and no one was injured. The rifle was sent back to S&W, and it was repaired and returned. A copy of one page of the manual was enclosed, highlighting the need to keep the rifle clean and only use certain types of ammunition, insinuating that the problem was operator error, not a design flaw. The Senior Instructor sold the rifle shortly thereafter.

Michigan Instructor: “Back before I was more familiar with this model, we had a malfunction of the Extractor during an event – it simply fell apart during a course of fire. I took it to Williams and they said it needed to go back to S&W. To save time I just bought a new extractor, springs and dowel pins and replaced them myself. Tested it and it worked fine, that’s until it malfunctioned again after several hundred rounds down range.

As the old saying goes “two is one and one is none” – I had purchased several extractors, springs and dowel pins – replaced it a second time and it worked fine all up until I had a “Run-Away…” Luckily I had the muzzle pointed down range as it spit out the balance of 30 rounds down range without the need to have a finger on the trigger….
I contacted S&W and they sent me a repair tag and shipped it back to them. Upon its return I noticed that they replaced the hammer, sear and all the springs were replaced with “Blue” springs. The rifle performed well the after that but I never brought it back to an Appleseed. It now sits in the vault as an expensive club.”

Montpelier, VA: I’ve witnessed out-of-battery firing and squib from M&P 15/22’s twice but never from a 10/22.
 
I bought one of the early 15-22s with no flash hider and shot the heck out of it. I bought a new one later on. I checked my old one and it is DIRTY but never a problem.
 
Interesting. I have a few thousand rounds through mine. (15-22 Sport - newer model). I've never had an issue, thankfully. Matter of fact, last time out was an outing at a friends cabin. Probably put 1500 rounds through it with no cleaning, and zero issues. Maybe 1 FTE that whole time. Love this thing and hoping this is a very limited issue.
 
Mine often goes 400+ without a clean.

How many non issue 15-22s have been used? I get pulling guns from the line for malfunctions, done it before myself but you pull the offending gun and trouble shoot it you don't ban everything. If that was the case there would be no 1911s, no Glocks, no AR15s and no AKs at any of our shoots.

Would like to know if there is more to this story, individual reports on each rifle.

Glad everyone is ok though.
 
Regardless of not cleaned enough or whatever, this is not
good news for S&W or it's reputation for them to take
this action on a singular particular model.
Let's hope Smith and Wesson reviews this and then we'll see what
they have to say.
BTW... I don't own one so i don't have a dog in this fight.


Chuck
 
Aw don't take it that way......

99 percent of all such incidents are directly attributable to operator error. Dirty firearms, improper trigger adjustment and such are not the fault of the rifle or its design.

Any such ban is an insult to the 15-22.

They HAVE to find out what the problem is. Zillions of these are in use and not caused problems. Nobody is blaming the rifle yet.
 
Reading the report, sounds like a couple of OOB, and a couple of fire control issues.

For the fire control issues, it sounds like pins walked or one or more springs were damaged. What is NOT known is whether the owner replaced the pins and/or fire control parts with different parts. Walking pins HAVE been known to occur, however, except in the case of worn out pin holes, I don't see how that is a S&W issue - if the j-connector spring or disconnector spring are worn/lost/whatever, then pins will walk because there is nothing to hold them in - it's not magic!

I understand Appleseed using an ounce of prevention in this case.

My $0.02.
 
I have owned 2 of the "standard" models. The first was a very early model. Never had an issue with it. Sold it because my 10/22 carbine was much more accurate. Fast forward about 2 years, bought another of the same model and added a suppressor. Once again, no issues except for poor accuracy. Neither of these were cleaned on a regular schedule, just when I could not remember the last time it was cleaned.
 
As much as I love my 15-22s and have never had a single problem with them, except for a trigger issue when using a Timney, I have read of many issues with this gun. Seems many have had to ship the gun back for repair and like stated, seems the pins walking are not unusual.

Can't recall any of my other guns having this many complaints. Granted, this is the least expensive gun I own however that should not be an excuse. I have no doubt some if not many of the issues have been caused by the owner, but obviously not all. Most of the issues I've read about dealt with failures to eject properly & sure don't recall any conversations here about the stock trigger wanting to shoot full auto. I also thought S&W fixed the OOB issue long ago but I do know folks here have complained a lot about the extractor coming off.

So in light of discussions here plus now what the Applessed folks have experienced, seems to me to be a good idea to have S&W address their concerns prior to allowing this gun in their events. Better safe than sorry.
 
I was so happy, just grabbed one of these and thought nothing but good things about this purchase and now to read this is disappointing. Before I bought it I saw nothing but great things about the 15-22. I purchased it new but the older model because I liked it more than the new one. Now I'm feeling blah about something that was highly raved about everywhere.

No Bueno
 
I was so happy, just grabbed one of these and thought nothing but good things about this purchase and now to read this is disappointing. Before I bought it I saw nothing but great things about the 15-22. I purchased it new but the older model because I liked it more than the new one. Now I'm feeling blah about something that was highly raved about everywhere.

No Bueno

Why feel blah if you have no problem? The VAST majority of us have had no issues. Consider also that folks generally don't post unless they have had an issue. Also keep in mind this is a plinker for most and not your home defense or duty gun.

Also, a bunch of us don't shoot the gun as bought. We like to customize. Many of us have replaced the parts these folks are having issues with, such as the trigger group, the ejector and the trigger/hammer pins. But even then, I never had issues with the stock rifle.
 
I wonder if S&W has made modifications (improvements) to these rifles over the years. I don't know the answer. I have the newest model with the M-Lok handguard and have had some extraction issues, but nothing like what is described in the Appleseed stories above. If they have improved them, I wonder if they were only having issues with the early models at the Appleseed events. It does not specify that.

I also wonder if the trigger issues were due to modifications like replacing the screw that holds the grip on with a special screw designed to prevent over-travel of the trigger, or clipping one leg of the hammer spring, or just removing and installing the pins enough times to loosen the holes in the receiver. Many questions I have.

Mike
 
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