It appears that there's a problem with the 15/22!

[tomcatt51]

If you have the authority to ban a gun for perceived safety issues then you could have the authority to temporarily confiscate such unsafe weapon, if written into your rules. If I had a stock gun that was so unsafe, then I'd have no issue with some experts checking it out. If I had modified my gun so as to be unsafe, then yep, I'd be enraged for someone to prove what I did wrong....

...Is this not common sense?

Common sense doesn't seem to apply here.

If you read the Appleseed decree the 15-22 their "instructor" worked on that went full auto was sent back to S&W, repaired under warranty and they now deem to be a "very expensive club" and it's being "kept in a vault". I guess to protect them from it. Even after warranty repairs they still won't use it. I'd like to be protected from the Appleseed "instructor" that worked on it before it went full auto.

I guess this is an example of common sense as applied at Project Appleseed.

If I showed up at an event and was categorically told I couldn't shoot my usual (proven reliable) match rifle because it was "un-safe" what would happen next I can't post here.

In 4 weeks I'll be shooting the NSSF Rimfire Challenge World Championships with my rifle that Project Appleseed deems too "un-safe" for use an a Project Appleseed event.

 

[didactic]

...

On the other hand the decision to ban them altogether seems like a bit of an over reaction.

Before firing any rifle the shooter should know how to perform a function check. Before competing a shooter should have the basic wherewithal to test fire a gun that will be used in competition.

Indeed, time will tell whether Appleseed's restrictions are justified, or an over-reaction. Granted.

Please keep in mind that an Appleseed shoot is a marksmanship clinic, not a competition. It is not a "newbie" program, although raw newbies are absolutely welcome. Many of those do not have the knowledge, or the place, to test-fire and function-check their rifles before they arrive at a shoot. Gotta learn it somewhere ... .

In response to a question from a different post, I have tried to make it clear which of my statements are from direct personal knowledge and which are assumptions, subject to change. For the present, I stand by them all.

I expect that a more complete public statement will be forthcoming, but I can't predict exactly when. Please keep in mind that the statement listed above, the instructor bulletin, was an internal communication, not intended for public release. Hindsight shows that it was probably inevitable that it would be released. Could it have been more complete and polished? Sure. But folks should judge it by the right standards. It's a TEMPORARY ban, in force UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE. Nothing more than that.

To all those who have used these rifles without problems, congratulations. Good for you. I wish you continued pleasure and success.

 

[Ed Fowler]

I feel it is much better for folks to learn where there are others who may be more knowledgeable available to coach them through problems with their firearm, rather than trying to figure it out on their own shooting by themselves.

Having recently experienced detonations with CCI and Federal 22 rimfires and having extractors blown out I strongly suggest that all ranges have partitions between shooters. These do not have to be much, 1/4 inch plywood would be enough.

 

[AGoyette]

THAT, right freekin there!!
And I'd include Golden Bullets on that No-Bang list as well...just as crappy.

Yes, Remington Golden Bullets are on S&W's no shoot list. However, many of us have had no problems with them. I have talked to S&W about them (and the person I talked to had a 15-22 and used GB's too) and he said that their test guns just did not like GB's. Golden Bullets are very dirty. However, I only have one FTF or FTE out of 200 rounds. I use them for practice and use Federal 40 grain copper plated bullets for my Steel Challenge matches. I also clean the gun after 2 matches. My 15-22 has earned the nick name of ole reliable at the matches as I have had zero issues when I use the Federal ammo and stick to my cleaned schedule.
As to everyone assuming that the "qualified instructor" caused the gun to go full auto.. we do not know what the instructors qualifications are. They could be a smith who also is an instructor, we do not know.. The same goes for everyone assuming that the problem guns were modified.. Again we do not know if they were or not. You can not say that the shooters were total newbies and then say that they knew enough to modify gun. Again, we do not know this to be true, so please don't assume things.
I do know that this concerns me. My gun is due for a cleaning, and I will be inspecting it a little bit closer when I do clean it. (BTW, my gun is totally stock except for the red dot on top) and I compete with it. It is the only M&P rifle or handgun I own that is stock.

 

[tomcatt51]

...As to everyone assuming that the "qualified instructor" caused the gun to go full auto.. we do not know what the instructors qualifications are. They could be a smith who also is an instructor, we do not know...

Correct, all we know is from the Appleseed decree and in it they stated the 15-22 went full auto AFTER their "instructor" worked on it.

We also know, from the decree, that the rifle was returned to S&W, serviced and returned but that wasn't good enough for Project Appleseed as they now refer to it as an "expensive club" to be "kept in a vault".

The question becomes: What will satisfy Project Appleseed?

 

[AGoyette]

I've had great results in my 15-22 with Remington Golden Bullets.

Besides CCI Minimags, they are my second choice. I've purchased over 7000 rounds of them in the past few years.

I too have had very few issues using Golden Bullets. Are they dirty as all get out, yes. Is the bullet seated firmly into the brass, no. Does it only get used for practice and shooting skunks, yes.
I compete in Steel Challenge matches with my 15-22. What I look for in ammo is does it group well and does it work good in my gun. For my gun (and every gun is different) Golden Bullets and Federal 40 grain plated bullets (Game Shok) group the best. The grouping with CCI was all over the place, yet my husband's long rifle seems to love CCI. I have talked to others who's 15-22's seem to like Golden Bullets, even if they are filthy and poorly made. The Federal Game Shok are made sooo much better than Remington Golden Bullets. However they are harder to find and more expensive. Just my 2 cents worth..

 

[GhostMutt]

Unless ALL of these four instances happened on the same day at Appleseed events across the country then it would appear that Appleseed did not deem the 15-22 dangerous, even after it went full auto, what we keep getting referred to was that there was an injury! "Blessedly not a serious one."

Therein lies the crux of this issue....they only decided to enforce the 'temporary ban' after someone was injured. Now can event organisers do more to ensure that participants do not suffer injuries when paying to attend a course. Of course they can, they should be expecting issues such as these as they are not exclusive to any particular rifle but are the nature of the game, 9/10 nothing goes wrong...the 10th time people get hurt, whose fault is that, the rifle or the event organisers? Every comp i have shot at has adequate spacing between shooters most have dividers between booths. Appleseed could ensure shooter safety by erecting walls between the booths or limit the numbers and distances between competitors to minimum safe distance.

It is always easier to blame the tool, rather than the operator, it is always easier to blame the operator than the organiser and their safety precautions.

When people get injured, everyone hears lawsuit...'Project Appleseed' more like 'Project Deflection' I am all ears to hear what S&W say in defence of their rifle causing an injury at an event where people are paying to attend, sounds to me that either way lawyers are about to get richer.

If the 15-22 turns out to be dangerous, then Appleseed and the injured party will sue, sue, sue...if it turns out that S&W deem their rifle safe, then what will Project Appleseed do to redeem the reputation of the 15-22 which they seem intent on smearing?

 

[Kmckinnon]

Oops!

Same experience here with the golden bullets. Honestly, I've gone through a number of the 1400 round buckets with little or no issues at all. Can't say as much for Federal or even CCI at times.

I recently purchased a 15-22. My LGS gave me a 100 round box of Rem Golden Bullets. I shot them up as my first range session with the new gun. My bad as I should have noticed the suggestion to steer clear of those rounds in the 15-22 Owners Manual. FWIW the ammo ran OK with only one Fail-To-Fire out of the entire 100 rounds (ammo issue as I could clearly see where the round was struck but failed to fire even after multiple attempts).

While I had no real issue with Rem Golden (the gun us so new that 100 rounds is all I've shot to date!) I will avoid purchasing that ammo in the future based upon S&W advice/warning. I have purchased some CCI AR Tactical (I hate that overused word) to try next time.

Meanwhile I hope to see this whole SNAFU with Appleseed resolved in the near future. I purchased the 15-22 to get my wife aquainted/familiar/trained with rifles and to provide me with a refresher too (It has been a few years since my Army M16 and civilian hunting/trap shooting days). If it works out we'll move up the food chain with our next purchase being an AR15... or we'll be so happy with the 15-22 that we'll get another one (His & Her's). To this end it is our intent to join a local club with an outdoor range. Appleseed events might be just the ticket for us to learn and become Rifleman/Riflechick.

While I am dismayed to find my new 15-22 banned from Appleseed events I see what is going on and expect that Appleseed and S&W, two class organizations, will work together to quickly put an end to this ban.

 

[tomcatt51]

Therein lies the crux of this issue....they only decided to enforce the 'temporary ban' after someone was injured. Now can event organisers do more to ensure that participants do not suffer injuries when paying to attend a course. Of course they can, they should be expecting issues such as these as they are not exclusive to any particular rifle but are the nature of the game, 9/10 nothing goes wrong...the 10th time people get hurt, whose fault is that, the rifle or the event organisers? Every comp i have shot at has adequate spacing between shooters most have dividers between booths. Appleseed could ensure shooter safety by erecting walls between the booths or limit the numbers and distances between competitors to minimum safe distance.

Go to Project Appleseeds site Project Appleseed Home . Home page. Watch the pics at the top as they scroll thru, be patient. There's one of shooters on the firing line literally elbow to elbow. Semi-autos mixed in with bolt action rifles. What surprises me is that they don't have more problems doing things like that.

 

[RedNeck Jim]

Go to Project Appleseeds site Project Appleseed Home . Home page. Watch the pics at the top as they scroll thru, be patient. There's one of shooters on the firing line literally elbow to elbow. Semi-autos mixed in with bolt action rifles. What surprises me is that they don't have more problems doing things like that.

OK, now I don't shoot on a public range & haven't done so since in the Air Force many years ago, but is that normal... allowing another shooter right next to a semi auto rifle? On my home range, when shooting with others, we are very wary of ejected hot brass & stay away from them. Seems to me, especially with inexperienced shooters, allowing another shooter so close without a divider partition could be a recipe for disaster. Folks flinch & jump when hit by hot brass or it goes down your shirt. Last thing in the world I want is someone with their finger on a trigger jumping around.

Are public ranges setup like that?

 

[GhostMutt]

I questioned said practices and that is NOT how our public range operates...Didactic was kind enough to answer via private message with his views on barriers and dividers.

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

While I do not have direct knowledge, I am very confident that Appleseed is not contemplating legal action against S&W. I hope that the reverse is also true. I don't believe that the injured shooter is planning to sue anybody.

Regarding your recommendation for dividers between shooters, to prevent injuries from brass or brass fragments, it's worth a consideration. I will forward it "up the chain."

My first reaction is that safety is a top consideration, but there might be unintended consequences. While a plywood barrier would prevent some or all such injuries, it would also restrict RSO's ability to observe what each shooter is doing. A big consideration, with youngsters and newbies on the line. We have long believed that unrestricted vision for RSO's is an important safety factor. Preventing or instantly correcting "muzzle sweeps" and people handling rifles while others are downrange is a constant priority and point of emphasis, and that would be much harder with barriers in place.

The cost and trouble of providing barriers is also consideration, as is the fact that a requirement for more space for each shooter would restrict participation at some venues. But, granted, these considerations should not be controlling. Safety, after all, is a balancing act, not an absolute. The only way to be absolutely safe from shooting incidents is to have no guns, anywhere, ever.

And, picky point admittedly, Appleseed shoots are clinics, not competitions. This might or might not be relevant where safety is under discussion.

Thanks again for your input.

In the interests of parity here is my response...seeing as he did not request that our correspondance remain private i thought i'd share it for all who are active on this thread.

"I find it odd that you are on the 15-22 forum, where there are hundreds of 15-22 owners who have fault free guns, professing to the unsafe qualities of a rifle we all know to be as 'safe' as any other rifle, that is your prerogative, but i do find it strange, what did you expect to accomplish? By the by i do not want to get into a discussion about that, i consider my 15-22 to be as safe as any other rifle i have shot and that is not what i am addressing here.
I act as RO at my local club on a weekly basis, we only really practice offhand shooting and our clubs ranges both indoors and outdoors have booths and dividers. I totally disagree with your assumption that the RO cannot observe the line. I do it all the time, with new and old shooters alike and the majority of 'problems' i encounter are not with newbies, who are all ears and nervous to get things right, the problems are with the more 'experienced' who 'know better' and 'have done it this way for ages' those are the problem children. In regards to people handling rifles while others are downrange, well our club would be shut down if ever such an occurrence happened. We have a firing line and a safety line, once a detail is completed..ALL shooters move out of the booths, the RO clears each rifle, then and only then are the shooters allowed to move in front of the firing line....NO ONE is allowed back into the shooting booths under any circumstances....then the RO checks that everyone is back from downrange, certifies that the range is clear and the shooters may then enter the booths again. That is basic safety...if this practice is not done at your events then i am surprised there are not more injuries reported. It is the responsibility of the provider to ensure that all possible safety issues are covered, regardless of cost or trouble.

I am shocked at what i have just read and would be appalled at your practices if i were to ever attend such an event. Safety is a cost and trouble? WOW. "

We all do things differently but i think the one thing we can all agree on is that safety should be the paramount condition when engaging with firearms, especially when you are providing training for paying customers....a supermarket has more safety considerations than these guys.

 

[tomcatt51]

...is that normal... allowing another shooter right next to a semi auto rifle?...

It's usually called "stupid", at least without brass catchers...

 

[didactic]

While I hadn't intended my PM to be reposted on the thread, I hadn't specifically asked that it not be. And I thank the poster for doing it as a whole, rather than a specific part out of context.

I DID say that cost and convenience were a consideration, but that those things should not be controlling. There's also the question of whether a step taken to add to safety might introduce or increase other risks. Trust me, these things will be discussed internally and evaluated.

And, for the record, and I'm sorry I didn't make this clearer, shooters are not ALLOWED to go to their shooting positions while other people are downrange. It's a strict no-no. But people do get distracted and preoccupied and break rules. So we have it as a high priority to prevent that from happening, by taking immediate action to stop someone violating that rule.

I hope this is understood and accepted.

 

[tomcatt51]

I am shocked at what i have just read and would be appalled at your practices if i were to ever attend such an event. Safety is a cost and trouble? WOW. "

We all do things differently but i think the one thing we can all agree on is that safety should be the paramount condition when engaging with firearms, especially when you are providing training for paying customers....a supermarket has more safety considerations than these guys.

I'm an RO and a competitive shooter and definitely agree. First thing I get from didactics' PM is that they want to herd shooters thru their event(s).

Sounds like they simply have too low a ratio of ROs to shooters and that is asking for problems as is shooters in such close proximity.

Can't see what the shooters are doing? Get ROs (and enough ROs) in positions where they can. That's called responsible range management.

When you can't give shooters individual attention the notion of these events being "clinics" ("Appleseed shoots are clinics" per didactic) becomes questionable.

 

[Kayback]

We have a visitor range at my local range which operates similar to that line. .22s dont throw hot brass very far nor is it very hot.

A 9mm pistol is hotter and throws further. A G3 or a Galil on the line would be an issue with how far they throw the brass.

I don't know much about Appleseed but I'm not enamoured with what I've heard.

Did Appleseed contact Smith about some form of recall or quality control issue?

 

[AGoyette]

We have a visitor range at my local range which operates similar to that line. .22s dont throw hot brass very far nor is it very hot. QUOTE]

Please tell that to my right arm. I shoot my 15-22 left handed (very left eye dominate) and I have numerous scars on my right arm from 3rd degree burn where the brass has landed on my arms. I have to wear either long sleeve shirts when shooting it or wear a poker type sleeve (basically a fabric tube that has elastic at both ends to hold it up) on my right arm to protect it. My poker sleeve is made out of cotton. So I can feel the heat of the brass on my arm when one lands there, but since cotton is a natural fiber, the heat from the brass does not melt through the fabric.

 

[tomcatt51]

We have a visitor range at my local range which operates similar to that line. .22s dont throw hot brass very far nor is it very hot....

...Did Appleseed contact Smith about some form of recall or quality control issue?

Project Appleseed isn't 22LR only. I guess you could be on the firing line next to a shooter with an AR-10.

There seem to be two different versions of how this is being resolved.

Didactic has told us Project Appleseed is doing this internally:
"The investigation is being conducted by the Appleseed Oversight Board Committee, or AOC. I don't know the names of all on that committee. I have been told that they have been in contact with Smith & Wesson, but do not know exactly what has been said, nor by whom, nor when a full public report will be issued. I do know that I personally trust their good faith in this process".

However, the decree sent out by Project Appleseed to their "instructors" says:
"At this time the least risk course of action would be to exclude the Smith & Wesson M&P 15/22 from future events until Smith & Wesson formally investigates the problem and issues an official corrective action".

If my reading comprehension skills are still even average that would seem to drop this firmly in S&Ws' lap.

A no win situation deflecting all responsibility away from Project Appleseed?

Getting more interesting?

 

[zymurgeist]

Sure... Sounds like you have an orange hat. Going to offer to sell me a bridge next?

I have several orange hats. They're required while hunting. What I would like is a rifleman's patch but I work 52 weekends a year. So tell me how many people have you talked to that have attended an Appleseed event and left unhappy? It can't be many.

 

[zymurgeist]

If you have the authority to ban a gun for perceived safety issues then you could have the authority to temporarily confiscate such unsafe weapon, if written into your rules.
Is this not common sense?

No it wouldn't be common sense it would be a Felony. You're talking about two very different things here.

 

[didactic]

Please, everybody try to stay cool.

Appleseed is reviewing (call it an investigation or not, as you choose) its interim policy, and I KNOW that some of the Appleseed leadership has contacted Smith & Wesson. I can only presume that Smith & Wesson is conducting some kind of review of the complaints, but do not know for a fact exactly what they are doing, nor how much progress they have made. Any eventual outcome of either action is unknown to me.

Yes, Appleseed is seeking to involve large numbers of shooters. We charge for participation in most cases, but considerably less than a commercial shooting school would have to charge.

Our instructor force is volunteers, and no, coaching and supervision is not one-on-one. I doubt if many schools provide that.

Is it a problem, that sometimes people get hit by hot brass from a neighboring shooter? Of course.

I don't think it's productive for me to continue to try to answer every criticism from every source. If you don't like the way Appleseeds are run, don't come. Will Appleseed change the way it operates? Certainly, to some degree. It's different now than it was when I first attended a shoot in 2007. Will that satisfy everybody? Almost certainly not.

I just think that it's a good program, on the whole quite safe, and I intend to continue to participate and support it. I invite anybody, except those who have already decided not to like it, to attend.

Thanks for everyone's consideration.