tomcatt51
Member
Based on the slim "evidence" provided by Project Appleseed my opinion is that it was a "knee jerk reaction to an injury" and Project Appleseed did an "IT'S ALL THEIR FAULT" while pointing at S&W.
It appears that there's a problem with the 15/22!
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cjt50
Member
Bottom line to all this is Apple seed over reacted with a poorly worded notification to their folks and it went viral on the webs.
Not the 1st time this has happen.
When you shoot enough 22lr in a day the gun will be dirty. Take that with some poor quality control during ammo manufacture, (slightly oversized case, deformed bullet or crimp etc. etc.) and you will have the recipe for a case failure.
I have had a few case failures with 22lr in different guns, and the common denominator is poor ammo in a dirty gun. They have occurred in a Ruger, S&W, Savage and Marlin Semi-auto's. Ammo; well I hate to trash 'em but Remington or Cascade was the offending ammunition every time.
Have I had a case failure in a 15-22, yes. The reason it occurred was the gun had shot 2000 rounds that day and the ammo was not the best. No one was hurt, the gun was inspected and placed back into service after a quick cleaning. I learned that its not a bad idea to run a bore snake every 500 rounds if i'm going to shoot that much between cleanings when using crappy ammo.
Would I buy another 15-22, yup got 4 of them. One has just shy of 90k thru it and the only complaint I have is the firing pins fail too often the way I shoot'em.
Stay safe!
Not the 1st time this has happen.
When you shoot enough 22lr in a day the gun will be dirty. Take that with some poor quality control during ammo manufacture, (slightly oversized case, deformed bullet or crimp etc. etc.) and you will have the recipe for a case failure.
I have had a few case failures with 22lr in different guns, and the common denominator is poor ammo in a dirty gun. They have occurred in a Ruger, S&W, Savage and Marlin Semi-auto's. Ammo; well I hate to trash 'em but Remington or Cascade was the offending ammunition every time.
Have I had a case failure in a 15-22, yes. The reason it occurred was the gun had shot 2000 rounds that day and the ammo was not the best. No one was hurt, the gun was inspected and placed back into service after a quick cleaning. I learned that its not a bad idea to run a bore snake every 500 rounds if i'm going to shoot that much between cleanings when using crappy ammo.
Would I buy another 15-22, yup got 4 of them. One has just shy of 90k thru it and the only complaint I have is the firing pins fail too often the way I shoot'em.
Stay safe!
TomAnderson
Member
There were a few cardboard dividers at the Appleseed I went to but not for everyone. It was crowded. There was less than a foot between shooting mats.
I know my Appleseed experience. I paid 80 bucks to listen to instructors um and uh about Paul Revere. The shooting lessons ran hot and cold with "qualified instructors" correcting each other all day. There were no spotting scopes. We spent more time walking than shooting. At the end of the day we were yelled at by the guy in charge. He said if we didn't come back to pass the test and become an instructor we hated freedom.
Get involved in NRA smallbore or CMP rimfire sporter. Its safe. Its professional. Its standardized. Its fun.
coolcobramatt
Member
Well I hope this is blown out of proportion as I bought a brand new 15-22 3 days ago.
GhostMutt
Member
Hmmm they modified the range with cardboard dividers eh? Well that is both practical and inexpensive. So that shows that they are aware of potential issues arising from having so many shooters crammed on a firing line. I wonder why that is not standardised or why some obviously see it as impractical and not economically viable?
I wonder how the 'qualified instructors' observed the line, which was also raised as an issue against such a costly, impractical and unnecessary measure such as the use of a simple cardboard divider?
So in your opinion as a paying customer, how would you describe the safety aspect of the shoot, in comparison to the NRA smallbore or CMP rimfire sporter, which you mentioned.
Also as a footnote.....regarding the chastisement by the 'guy in charge'....surely choosing whether or not to come back, based on your actual experience, is fully exercising your right to 'Freedom' and being coerced to come back is actually denying said freedoms.
GhostMutt
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dieselbeef
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it is appleseeds show...cant they decide who plays in it..for whatever reason they want..didn't realize it was anyones ''right'' to shoot appleseed with a 15-22
BlueOvalBandit
Member
Well if it does decide to go Chernobyl on you, as a fellow S&W enthusiast, I'll offer to risk life and limb to properly dispose of it for you. You pay just S&H to me, but if you act now for the next 72 hours I'm running a special for all S&W forum members, I'll reimburse all costs to ship the defective rifles for disposal.
GhostMutt
Member
Well if it does decide to go Chernobyl on you, as a fellow S&W enthusiast, I'll offer to risk life and limb to properly dispose of it for you. You pay just S&H to me, but if you act now for the next 72 hours I'm running a special for all S&W forum members, I'll reimburse all costs to ship the defective rifles for disposal.
I am now overly concerned about mine...It is away at the moment and when it comes back i am probably going to be too scared to shoot it....so if you are going reimburse all costs to ship...then...i'll send you mine.
Seeing as i live over 8526km away shipping is going to be a little on the steep side, so lets say.....because of the volatile cargo, the fact that i'll be sending it by boat, (so they can scupper the vessel should the gun decide to runaway) It will also need to go the long way round so that the dangerous casing ejection side never actually faces anyone. It will have to be packaged in some kind of protective lead case and a team of qualified instructors on hand to react to any incidents....that should run shipping at about $20,000.
I accept paypal
I am now overly concerned about mine...It is away at the moment and when it comes back i am probably going to be too scared to shoot it....so if you are going reimburse all costs to ship...then...i'll send you mine.
Seeing as i live over 8526km away shipping is going to be a little on the steep side, so lets say.....because of the volatile cargo, the fact that i'll be sending it by boat, (so they can scupper the vessel should the gun decide to runaway) It will also need to go the long way round so that the dangerous casing ejection side never actually faces anyone. It will have to be packaged in some kind of protective lead case and a team of qualified instructors on hand to react to any incidents....that should run shipping at about $20,000.
I accept paypal
You forgot loading and unloading by a team of robots to prevent it murdering anyone
TomAnderson
Member
The Appleseed line was made cold before going down to check targets. All weapons had ECIs and each one was checked.
They have their own version of Muzzle-Action-Trigger and the traditional safety rules. We were made to chorus them multiple times a day.
It was over the top. I dont know how effective it is to shame customers to return by saying we are bad Americans.
"I don't have a dog in this fight. Don't own a 15-22, though I've shot them. Too much plastic and was not impressed with the accuracy, so I went with a CMMG."
If you decide to get a 15-22, try it with different types of ammo. I get great groupings out of Federal Game Shok and dirty Golden bullets. Other ammos such as CCI, the grouping was not all that great. As a matter of fact, one of my worst groupings was with CCI. Different guns do better with certain ammos.
If you decide to get a 15-22, try it with different types of ammo. I get great groupings out of Federal Game Shok and dirty Golden bullets. Other ammos such as CCI, the grouping was not all that great. As a matter of fact, one of my worst groupings was with CCI. Different guns do better with certain ammos.
cyphertext
US Veteran
Too much hand wringing over the ammo advice given in the manual. Those "warnings" were in the manual due to the test guns being unreliable with those particular rounds PRIOR to the fix with the blue springs! S&W did not update the manual afterwards.
Also, all that advice means is that those rounds were unreliable in their test gun... Fail to feed, fail to fire, fail to eject... some type of issue where the rifle did not operate efficiently. However, use of those rounds listed will not damage your rifle, cause it to blow up, or cause injury due to their use! If you buy these rounds and your particular rifle functions well with them, by all means feel free to continue to use them.
cyphertext
US Veteran
Me too... CMMG for me, 15-22 for the boy... but my CMMG is the one that has had an OOB issue!
Just thought I would share as OOB does happen with other manufacturers.
Me too... CMMG for me, 15-22 for the boy... but my CMMG is the one that has had an OOB issue!
Just thought I would share as OOB does happen with other manufacturers.
Absolutely.
And I don't believe for an instant, that there has never been another OOB ever at an Appleseed event when there have been more than 28,000,000 rounds fired (their numbers based on 70000 participants who shoot 400-500 rounds at an event.)
The difference in this case is that a person was injured.
There has been a bunch of people here (former Appleseed event attendees) who have said that they are packed in very close when shooting.
That isn't S&W's fault.
Battle Born Nevada
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First post but I have viewed the form many times. It looks to me like their has been a problem with oob for many years. Gun owners don't need to stick their heads in the sand and wait for someone to lose and eye and give the anti gun people ammo. Lets be pro active and hope S&W can get to the bottom of the problem.
I've asked this person twice to elaborate on where he heard this "information" but he doesn't respond.
Has anybody else heard this same rumor?
tomcatt51
Member
The problem with your position is that this isn't something that happens only with 15-22s. It can, and does, happen with any of the rimfires.
Battle Born Nevada
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The OOB with the 15/22 is not a new problem. I have read replace the extractor, clean the gun more often, bad ammo and the pins walking may be the problem. No on has the answer. We all paid good money for these guns and if we operate the gun in a safe manner should expect to not have OOB and someone getting hurt. Lets give Hillary ammo to take away the semi auto.
tomcatt51
Member
You read about them here because this is a 15-22 forum. It gets talked about more often than it happens. And because of the path Project Appleseed has taken.
Maybe this will help clarify:
To read the whole post go back to post #117. I shortened it but tried to not take it out of context.
Ed Fowler
Member
Since we have a lot of experts here I would like to ask what you think of this cartridge, it is a Federal "Auto Match". Brand new ammo.
tomcatt51
Member
OOB or did it come out of the box that way?
Ed Fowler
Member
It is a fired cartridge.
tomcatt51
Member
Can you post a clear close up pic of the face of the case head? The surface the firing pin hits? I'd really like to see if there's visual evidence of what kind of hit ignited it.
I haven't seen an OOB in a 15-22 nor have I have I run into anyone who's had one. I'm not the greatest authority on this but I travel and shoot matches with a 15-22 and people like to talk about them when they see you're shooting one so I'm pretty sure the subject would come up.
Ed Fowler
Member
I have more photos and can try for a real close up of the head tomorrow. Many write about oob, I am not sure what they mean. I will tell you what this one is all about.
I purchased a new Victor, shot 100's of rounds and a CCI Blazer blew it up, tossing the extractor somewhere, damaging the bolt and the barrel. CCI CCI asked for the rest of the ammo and the blown cartridge and then claimed it was an oob. Smith and Wesson fixed it at no charge to me.
I just got the Victor back from the factory and was shooting some Federal auto match, finished an old box, about 40 rounds then opened a new box, Lot #1FK257 Federal Auto match. They sounded different, some bang, some boom, some pop. I was checking each round, the Victor with good ammo usually shoots an easy 7 inch group at 88 yards. These were shooting a 14 inch group, the greatest variation being vertical dispersion.
I would shoot one round, engage the safety, set the Victor down and check with my field glasses where the bullet hit the target. At about round 34 out of the new box there was a louder boom, smoke around the chamber and what was left of the round was stuck in the chamber. The case is real clean, and the bullet did not stick in the barrel, the extractor was not damaged.
Since I had engaged the safety between rounds I know the round did not fire out of battery. I believe the powder charge was to heavy and the action started to cycle before the bullet exited the barrel.
I feel Smith and Wesson is taking the blame for ammunition problems. They sent me a shipping label and just received my Victor, after I hear from them I will decided what to do with the rest of this box of ammo. I am hoping to find an independent lab that can check it out.
I purchased a new Victor, shot 100's of rounds and a CCI Blazer blew it up, tossing the extractor somewhere, damaging the bolt and the barrel. CCI CCI asked for the rest of the ammo and the blown cartridge and then claimed it was an oob. Smith and Wesson fixed it at no charge to me.
I just got the Victor back from the factory and was shooting some Federal auto match, finished an old box, about 40 rounds then opened a new box, Lot #1FK257 Federal Auto match. They sounded different, some bang, some boom, some pop. I was checking each round, the Victor with good ammo usually shoots an easy 7 inch group at 88 yards. These were shooting a 14 inch group, the greatest variation being vertical dispersion.
I would shoot one round, engage the safety, set the Victor down and check with my field glasses where the bullet hit the target. At about round 34 out of the new box there was a louder boom, smoke around the chamber and what was left of the round was stuck in the chamber. The case is real clean, and the bullet did not stick in the barrel, the extractor was not damaged.
Since I had engaged the safety between rounds I know the round did not fire out of battery. I believe the powder charge was to heavy and the action started to cycle before the bullet exited the barrel.
I feel Smith and Wesson is taking the blame for ammunition problems. They sent me a shipping label and just received my Victor, after I hear from them I will decided what to do with the rest of this box of ammo. I am hoping to find an independent lab that can check it out.
I live 15 minutes away from some of Federals biggest facilities. I know and have known many employees that work or have worked there in various departments.
I would not rule out an ammo issue.....
tomcatt51
Member
Interesting. What do you mean by "what was left of the round was stuck in the chamber"? the last section of case mouth that appears to be intact in your pic?
In a blow back action, the usual scenario is that upon firing the case is expanded out into contact with the chamber wall and the bolt (or slide) doesn't move back 'til pressure in the barrel has dropped enough for the case to "relax" its' grip on the chamber wall and then the case pushes the bolt back. Sorry if that was redundant.
Is the rim or head of the case, the part that is outside of the chamber but "trapped" in the bolt/slide recess ruptured?
There's a bunch of Federal Auto Match out there right now. Federal seems to have flooded the market with it recently. I have 5,000+ rds of lots 1FK103 & 1FK104 sitting here I haven't shot any of yet.
The last bucket of Remington Golden bullets I had did the bang and pop thing but there seemed to be only under-charges not over-charges.
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