It appears that there's a problem with the 15/22!

[intheburbs]

I sent you a PM as opposed to simply replying on this thread because I wanted to have a private conversation with you about the Appleseed event you attended.

I am not a liar. And I would expect that someone in the military would use a little more discretion in hurling accusations, as well as posting the contents of a private PM on a public thread.

1) While I am a state coordinator for Appleseed, I am not a member of the Board of Directors (we call it the AOC), nor am I authorized to speak on behalf of them or Appleseed. That is why I started my post that way.

2) I am not "in charge" of quality control at Appleseed. I am one of about 40 instructors whose ongoing responsibility is quality control.

And while I'm here, I'd like to address this comment:

Perhaps it's the pseudo-history they teach.

Everything we teach regarding the history of April 19, 1775 is from the nonfiction book Paul Revere's Ride by David Hackett Fischer. He is a Pulitzer Prize-winning author who wrote one of the most exhaustively-researched books on those events. I'd encourage you to read the book for yourself.

So, since we're out in public, I'll ask the question again. Can you please tell me about the Appleseed event you attended? What was the date and the location?

 

[tomcatt51]

Interesting. In post #117 intheburbs says he's a "Shoot Boss", now he says he's "a state coordinator for Appleseed".

 

[intheburbs]

Interesting. In post #117 intheburbs says he's a "Shoot Boss", now he says he's "a state coordinator for Appleseed".

What is so interesting?

Any volunteer can be a State Coordinator for Appleseed. It is more of a clerical function than anything else. Keeping track of instructors, events, ranges, etc. in your state.

A Shoot Boss is an instructor that has been trained to run events.

I'm an active instructor, who runs some events, who also happens to be the State Coordinator. It really is that simple.

 

[tomcatt51]

And now you're "THE State Coordinator" (for Michigan I assume) and not just "A state coordinator".

I'll leave it to the members to judge if "It really is that simple".

Are you also the "instructor" who worked on the 15-22 before it went full-auto?

 

[GhostMutt]

I'm an active instructor, who runs some events, who also happens to be the State Coordinator.

So, in your capacity as an active instructor and state coordinator, do you like others have said on this thread, deem cramming the line and not employing 'costly and unneccesary' dividers between marksmen as safe practice?

I understand that a cardboard divider may be expensive and difficult to transport but do you accept or reject that it would help to prevent such injuries? Such injuries as blood drawn from an OOB, the like of which led to the ban of the 15-22.

Also if the ruger that OOB or any other 22 rimfire semi-auto had caused an blood drawing injury requiring hospital treatment, would a ban of Ruger 10/22's or other brand have been implemented?

I'm just curious as to a state coordinators stance on safe practice and prevention of foreseeable accidents.

 

[intheburbs]

And now you're "THE State Coordinator" (for Michigan I assume) and not just "A state coordinator".

I'll leave it to the members to judge if "It really is that simple".

Wow, you guys are funny. Each state has one coordinator. So I am "a state coordinator" along with 49 others. But I'm "the state coordinator" of Michigan. Is that simple enough?

Are you also the "instructor" who worked on the 15-22 before it went full-auto?

No, I was not that instructor. But I will answer your question with two questions: Do you ever do a detailed cleaning on your rifles? Are you a certified gunsmith for each of those rifles?

So, in your capacity as an active instructor and state coordinator, do you like others have said on this thread, deem cramming the line and not employing 'costly and unneccesary' dividers between marksmen as safe practice?

I understand that a cardboard divider may be expensive and difficult to transport but do you accept or reject that it would help to prevent such injuries? Such injuries as blood drawn from an OOB, the like of which led to the ban of the 15-22.

Also if the ruger that OOB or any other 22 rimfire semi-auto had caused an blood drawing injury requiring hospital treatment, would a ban of Ruger 10/22's or other brand have been implemented?

I'm just curious as to a state coordinators stance on safe practice and prevention of foreseeable accidents.

I am not aware of any OOB from a 10/22. The incident I related to in an earlier post was about a squib in a 10/22, not an OOB. Big difference. And as I'm sure all of you firearms experts are aware, a squib has absolutely nothing to do with the rifle that it happened in. A squib can happen in ANY rifle, because it's a result of an ammunition problem.

Any injury with any rifle would be treated the same way. I don't understand why people think Appleseed is biased against the 15/22.

And regards to our safety practices - my opinion is moot because you guys don't know me from a hole in the wall. Whatever I say I'm sure will be twisted or taken out of context (like how a squib from a 10/22 became an OOB).

I will tell you this - I've had my own children shooting on the line at many of our events. I even got my wife to come out for one. And many of the host ranges require a club RSO to be present during the event. I am not aware of a single range expressing any safety concern about how the events are run. Appleseed has had thousands of events over the last 10 years; I'll let that record speak for itself.

 

[tomcatt51]

So you've gone from "I am not part of the Appleseed “management,” but I am a Shoot Boss for Appleseed" to actually being "the State Coordinator of Michigan".

Not very forthcoming or honest or say much for your credibility IMHO.

It's easy to see how questionable actions are taken...

 

[GhostMutt]

I am not aware of any OOB from a 10/22. The incident I related to in an earlier post was about a squib in a 10/22, not an OOB. Big difference. And as I'm sure all of you firearms experts are aware, a squib has absolutely nothing to do with the rifle that it happened in. A squib can happen in ANY rifle, because it's a result of an ammunition problem.

And regards to our safety practices - my opinion is moot because you guys don't know me from a hole in the wall. Whatever I say I'm sure will be twisted or taken out of context (like how a squib from a 10/22 became an OOB).

Oh i'm sorry but i took it from your thread #117 in which you stated
"There have been plenty of malfunctions on our lines. Every possible malfunction you can imagine – FTE, FTF, double feeds, duds, etc.

I’ve even had a squib on my line that the shooter didn’t catch. She cleared the malfunction (as a squib usually causes a short stroke), chambered another round, and pulled the trigger. Fortunately, she wasn’t injured, but it scared the heck out of her. It bulged the barrel and receiver, and blew out the mag. It was a Ruger 10/22, she sent it back to Ruger (at their request) and they replaced her rifle at no charge.

But again, in all of these instances, no one was injured.

We have hundreds of events every year all over the country, and thousands of shooters in attendance. It's not possible to report/track every malfunction. But again, to re-iterate, major safety issues are reported – squibs, OOB, anything that has the potential to cause injury."

I took it from that, that you are aware of every type of malfunction.....so have you only ever have one OOB and that was with the 15-22?
I never turned a squib round into an OOB
Even the best of us miss the odd word when we are typing (Also if the a ruger that OOB)

....i asked if a Ruger or any other semi auto rimfire that OOB had caused injury. Would you ban the rifle?

Also i specifically asked if you thought range dividers were costly and unnecessary and whether cramming the line..increases the chances of such injuries occuring, you failed to answer..saying it a moot point...I think that this is the REAL point....you should change your name to project deflection.

Seeing as you admit to witnessing every type of malfunction, you would have thought it prudent to do as much as possible to divert such instances from causing serious injury.

It is not a moot point and i want to know if YOU think that range dividers and cramming the line are safe?

 

[JBluezamassa]

Ouch @ this thread. I guess I should have done some more research before buying one of these the other day. Mine's not due in until late next week, as my FFL is out of town.

As a side note, last night at the range, my wife put 150 CCI mini mags through her SR22 with only one FTF.

You guys all know way more about 22 than I do. I shoot mostly 9mm and 40 S&W. I'm a little nervous about even firing this MP15-22 after it arrives now. Sheesh.

We have a 10/22 Compact, which hasn't been used yet. I hope that one performs. As stated in another thread, we went to 22 as a way to train with much less expensive ammo. I realize it's a totally different animal than 9, 40S&W, and 223 Rem, but it's still good for training at the range IMO.

I hope there's some resolution to this MP15-22 "issue"

As a new member here, I truly appreciate all the various opinions and view points on this "issue" Thank you all.

Edit to add: BTW, the thing that absolutely terrifies me the most. This MP15-22 going into full auto mode. that would get me a lifetime ban at our range. Oh and not to mention, it would scare the living daylights out of me. Seriously

 

[Jaymo]

I love fanboyism. Makes us look like the Glockbots.
Is this really what this forum has become?

Funny, how the problem seems to be with Federal and CCI, considering how Federal owns CCI.

For a few years, we couldn't find rimfire ammo to purchase.
Now we can, but the QC is so low as to not be safe?
Wonderful times, these are.

IF the problem is the fault of S&W, BLAME THEM.
If it is the fault of the ammo makers, BLAME THEM.

I'm not so sure I'd send the remaining ammo from the box to the ammo maker, just so they could dispose of it and say there is nothing wrong with it. Definitely, not without them reimbursing me for the entire box of ammo.

It seems, we've read about this here before.
Bad ammo blows up gun.
Ammo maker demands faulty ammo back, for "testing".
Ammo maker goes full CYA mode, blames gun maker and tells the consumer to grab their ankles.
Gun maker fixes gun for free, or does not.

Funny, that gun makers advise against using hand loaded ammo, when factory ammo has had more than it's share of problems lately.

As far as Appleseed goes, I don't have a dog in that fight.

 

[tomcatt51]

"the thing that absolutely terrifies me the most. This MP15-22 going into full auto mode".

What occurred after a Project Appleseed "instructor" worked on the gun is the only instance of a 15-22 going full auto I've ever heard of and since Project Appleseeds' ban I've looked for another instances of this.

The 15-22 uses a std AR-15 trigger group that is proven to be very reliable.

Enjoy your new 15-22. I have two I bought to shoot NSSF Rimfire Challenge and other events with. I've been shooting them for 3+ yrs now without incident.

As to Project Appleseeds' ban, my opinion is that they're playing CYA at S&Ws' expense rather than admit that putting shooters elbow to elbow on the firing line is asking for problems.

 

[GhostMutt]

Ouch @ this thread.
I hope there's some resolution to this MP15-22 "issue"
Edit to add: BTW, the thing that absolutely terrifies me the most. This MP15-22 going into full auto mode. that would get me a lifetime ban at our range. Oh and not to mention, it would scare the living daylights out of me. Seriously

No need for the ouch....the rifle is as safe as any other.

In all my time on this forum....the only time i have heard of a 15-22 going full auto, was when an Appleseed instructor 'worked' on it. That was the only reported instance of this happening ever! Also if that was the rifles fault then the rifle should have been banned there and then, returned to S&W who should have to fight a serious lawsuit for having a dangerous and illegal firearm...makes you question why it wasn't.

Seriously brother check out the testimony of the owners on this forum as to the reliability, function, fun and enjoyment that a 15-22 can and will bring you....just don't plan on attending any Appleseed events with it

 

[s&wchad]

Gentlemen,
I read the last page and a half of this thread and I'm troubled by it.

I call your attention to our forum rules:

1. We ask that you conduct yourselves as ladies and gentlemen. Civil Discourse and Courteous Behavior shall be the norm.
Do NOT post nudes here.
Do NOT post "girly" pics here or use them for avatars.
Obscene, vulgar, lewd, or ‘just plain crude’ language or images will not be tolerated. Images or Videos in the same vein or displaying such language will not be tolerated. If you cannot use it politely in mixed company or around YOUNGSTERS, please don’t use it here.
"Cre@t!ve sp&!!ing" of the words which the filter traps is forbidden.
Homophobia and gratuitous sexual references will NOT be tolerated.

2. Remember- opinions will differ. Get over it. State your opinion calmly, and allow others to state theirs. Discussion will be fine, but there is no need to take a thread into a verbal fistfight or shouting match.

3. Do NOT descend into personal attacks on a member.
Naiveté, or viewpoints different from yours are no reason to call a member an idiot or moron.
If a poster is obnoxious, report him and ignore him.
Do not feed trolls.
NO LYNCHINGS or MUGGINGS.

/\/\/\/\/\ Read this again... /\/\/\/\/\

Project Appleseed is not the enemy. They're a non-profit organization that relies on volunteers to teach firearm safety and marksmanship. That's a very worthy and noble cause. Attacking one of their volunteers, regardless of their position is uncalled for and out of line.

We're done here...