"Jacketed bullets accelerate barrel wear"
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Pete
S/W - Lifer
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I have worn out at least two, and more likely three or four, issued handguns during the last 29 years. At no time was barrel wear ever a problem. For practical purposes I had unlimited ammo. I've had alloy frames break and stretch, as well as the guts wear out, but never a barrel on a handgun. I honestly do not think you have a concern. Avoid stainless steel bore brushes and your guns will live long enough to be part of your estate.
Engine49guy
Member
Get the lead out
Just wanted to throw this out there for newer shooters ,
If there is any lead build up in the barrel after shooting unjacketed lead bullets ,
Firing a few rounds of factory jacketed ammunition helps blow the lead deposits out simplifying cleaning the barrel.
Just wanted to throw this out there for newer shooters ,
If there is any lead build up in the barrel after shooting unjacketed lead bullets ,
Firing a few rounds of factory jacketed ammunition helps blow the lead deposits out simplifying cleaning the barrel.
whelenshooter
Member
I have a friend who has put an HONEST 125,000 rounds of mostly hardball FMJ through his Kimber .45 auto in the ten or so years he has owned it. (I say honest, because many people estimate their round count and tend to overestimate. This guy actually counts and keeps a record.) His barrel is fine but he did have to replace the barrel bushing and some other stuff (I'll give him a call at a decent hour and find out everthing he replaced and edit this message when I find out.) For many years it was the only handgun he owned, and it is still his favorite so it is used constantly. The gun could stand to be refinished; there isn't much bluing left, but the barrel only appears to be well polished inside. How Kimber barrel steel compares to Smith & Wesson I don't really know, but I imagine both are high quality. They may have used a softer steel in the small batch of early Model 29s referred to in the original post, but I don't know why they would do that in what was supposed to be a top-of-the-line handgun.
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da gimp
Member
we have a pre-war Walther PPK, 7.65mm,PDM marked, that the 1st 1 1/2"
of rifling in front of the chamber is worn smooth. Bought it from a dealer in St Louis selling it for the family of the American GI who brought it back, he'd taken it off a dead German.
Our only guess was that it was used by one of the SS Eizengruppe(spelling?)for executions, because nobody shoots a PPK that much. & Yes we know that the PDM was the German Post office Div of police.
We have an old Browning Hi Power 9mm(prewar 36,XXX stack number)that I carried as my duty gun for years,and put at least 6000 rds of cast & jacketed ammo thru it with no visible wear to rifling.
I wouldn't worry about barrel wear as much as saving the pistol from shooting loose & blue wear on the early Smiths & Colts. Just my opinion, and thanks for the pix of the vv pretty early pistols.
da gimp
OFC, Mo. Chapter
NRA Life Endowment
of rifling in front of the chamber is worn smooth. Bought it from a dealer in St Louis selling it for the family of the American GI who brought it back, he'd taken it off a dead German.
Our only guess was that it was used by one of the SS Eizengruppe(spelling?)for executions, because nobody shoots a PPK that much. & Yes we know that the PDM was the German Post office Div of police.
We have an old Browning Hi Power 9mm(prewar 36,XXX stack number)that I carried as my duty gun for years,and put at least 6000 rds of cast & jacketed ammo thru it with no visible wear to rifling.
I wouldn't worry about barrel wear as much as saving the pistol from shooting loose & blue wear on the early Smiths & Colts. Just my opinion, and thanks for the pix of the vv pretty early pistols.
da gimp
OFC, Mo. Chapter
NRA Life Endowment
OP
aterry33
Member
Just have to post a correction and say Gun4Fun sent me that article, not 29Aholic. Getting my Model 29 guys confused 
So, Gun4Fun, can you clarify WHEN S&W realized that folks were shooting the heck out .44 mags and changed the steel in the barrels? Just curious. I presume it would have been early on in the pre-29 years? Would a 29-2 have harder barrel steel than a pre-29?
From what I have read the 5 screw and some 4 screw guns are the only ones designed for lead only (at least on a regular basis).
It isn't that the barrels were made off soft steel, but they simply weren't hardened to the degree that the later 4 screw and newer guns are. The 29-2 wouldn't be involved at all.
I am not saying that you can't shoot jacketed at all in these guns, just that it should be limited in amount.
If you want a copy of one of the articles, e-mail me and I'll send it to you. If you still don't believe it, you can write the author direct and discuss it with him. He took the time to personlly respond to me.
It isn't that the barrels were made off soft steel, but they simply weren't hardened to the degree that the later 4 screw and newer guns are. The 29-2 wouldn't be involved at all.
I am not saying that you can't shoot jacketed at all in these guns, just that it should be limited in amount.
If you want a copy of one of the articles, e-mail me and I'll send it to you. If you still don't believe it, you can write the author direct and discuss it with him. He took the time to personlly respond to me.
Dennis The B
US Veteran
Another issue that hasn't been mentioned here, is the tolerances which are held in manufacturing the barrel. What may appear to be wear, may actually be tolerances in boring the barrel, cutting rifling, threading cutting, and other variances in manufacturing.
It's been mentioned also in other fora, that forcing cones aren't always milled square to the cylinder face. There's also the factor about the amount of off-center entry to the forcing cone caused by a cylinder, case, and bullet which are not in perfect alignment.
While heat-generating pressure surely creates friction, and there is a decided lack of lubrication in the barrel, it would take some very detailed and extensive testing to determine what the real cause of barrel wear is.
It's been mentioned also in other fora, that forcing cones aren't always milled square to the cylinder face. There's also the factor about the amount of off-center entry to the forcing cone caused by a cylinder, case, and bullet which are not in perfect alignment.
While heat-generating pressure surely creates friction, and there is a decided lack of lubrication in the barrel, it would take some very detailed and extensive testing to determine what the real cause of barrel wear is.
MSgt Dave
Member
Lead Verses plated
I have had one barrel wear out in my 50+ years of shooting. That was a Beretta 92FS. When first purchased, it came with 500 rounds of jacketed. Shot them up in 3 sessions., then lead afterwards. I figure that the barrel lasted about 5000 rounds total when the groups became very large at 25 yards. I drove a raw un-sized lead bullet through the barrel to have it mic out at .358. Replaced the barrel, and back to original groupings.
I do have a S&W Model 15, in 38 Spcl made in 1976 that has somewhere between 50-100,00 rounds through it, almost all lead. Only item to wear out was the cylinder which I replaced with a new one along with the center pin machined to fit. Barrel is perfect and this is the pistol used as the standard at the range as to be beat. So far, nothing newly made has so far.
I cast my lead using old 22 bullets cleaned from a range by my father when he was in college or new Dupont lead with a 5% tin mix. Lasted me for over 35 years so far.
I do use cast in my Beretta and 38Spl, sometimes in my SCCY 9mm. All other are RMR plated and I have seen no wear on any of the barrels. Including my M&P 380, which is loaded a little hot to compare with commercial loads.
I normally shoot 400-500 rounds a week split up between 5 autos and 1 revolver. So far, other than the Beretta, all barrels are mint.
My loads are below posted loads. For the autos, I build a load to shoot well and for the slide to fully function, then stop. For the 38 Spl, I am almost a full grain of Bullseye below posted loads. Great shooting and very, very accurate.
I have had one barrel wear out in my 50+ years of shooting. That was a Beretta 92FS. When first purchased, it came with 500 rounds of jacketed. Shot them up in 3 sessions., then lead afterwards. I figure that the barrel lasted about 5000 rounds total when the groups became very large at 25 yards. I drove a raw un-sized lead bullet through the barrel to have it mic out at .358. Replaced the barrel, and back to original groupings.
I do have a S&W Model 15, in 38 Spcl made in 1976 that has somewhere between 50-100,00 rounds through it, almost all lead. Only item to wear out was the cylinder which I replaced with a new one along with the center pin machined to fit. Barrel is perfect and this is the pistol used as the standard at the range as to be beat. So far, nothing newly made has so far.
I cast my lead using old 22 bullets cleaned from a range by my father when he was in college or new Dupont lead with a 5% tin mix. Lasted me for over 35 years so far.
I do use cast in my Beretta and 38Spl, sometimes in my SCCY 9mm. All other are RMR plated and I have seen no wear on any of the barrels. Including my M&P 380, which is loaded a little hot to compare with commercial loads.
I normally shoot 400-500 rounds a week split up between 5 autos and 1 revolver. So far, other than the Beretta, all barrels are mint.
My loads are below posted loads. For the autos, I build a load to shoot well and for the slide to fully function, then stop. For the 38 Spl, I am almost a full grain of Bullseye below posted loads. Great shooting and very, very accurate.
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smoothshooter
Member
That gun writers had an almost unlimited supply of ammo, and got paid to shoot (wish I had that job)...most of what was/has been written has been based off of extreme circumstances.
As a regular reloader and semi-regular shooter, I would just about bet that I could shoot jacketed bullets (I dont cuz cast is cheaper) for the rest of my shooting life (I am 43) through my 4 screw Pre-29 shooter and it would sh
ow no ill effects.
I n otherwords, the average person that has other things to do than shoot for a living would probably never wear an early gun out in their lifetime.
Relax Aaron
We should all be so fortunate as to wear out a gun barrel.
If someone can afford can afford the ammo to do that, they can afford the new barrel or gun.
With hard cast and coated....
With hard cast and coated bullets so available (and cheap) I don't have any reason to shoot jacketed bullets unless for a special occasion.
With hard cast and coated bullets so available (and cheap) I don't have any reason to shoot jacketed bullets unless for a special occasion.
How about barrel/cylinder gap changes?
I have read more than one article over the years on Rimfire rifle competitors, and the replacement of their rifle barrels. One article years ago suggested that a rifle barrel, (Anschutz, Winchester 52, etc) should be replaced about every 6000 to 8000 rounds to maintain top accuracy. Another article touted that after about 6000 rounds they would pull the barrel, cut off the chamber end, re-chamber it and re-install and it would be good for another 6000 rounds or so. Keep in mind these were all top competitors, and the only ammo used was top of the line standard velocity.
Now I had an Anschutz match rifle, and it was vintage of 1973, and it had been used by one high school rifle team competitor for 4 years, I bought and my son used it for 4 years on the rifle team, and I used it for outdoor 100 yard prone matches. Based on 500 rounds a week for 24 weeks per year for the HS Team shooters times 4 years each equals about 96,000 rounds, and I probably put maybe 1000 rounds a year through it for 5-6 years for an estimated total of around 100,000 rounds. The last time I shot it it would still hold a 1/4" at 100 yards.
The only barrel I've ever replaced was a 22-250 Varmint barrel after about 6-7000 rounds of 55 gr. Nosler's at 3650 fps (and sometimes in rapid sequence at Prairie dogs) and the 6" in front of the chamber was toast.
My opinion is heat and velocity burn out a barrel.
Now I had an Anschutz match rifle, and it was vintage of 1973, and it had been used by one high school rifle team competitor for 4 years, I bought and my son used it for 4 years on the rifle team, and I used it for outdoor 100 yard prone matches. Based on 500 rounds a week for 24 weeks per year for the HS Team shooters times 4 years each equals about 96,000 rounds, and I probably put maybe 1000 rounds a year through it for 5-6 years for an estimated total of around 100,000 rounds. The last time I shot it it would still hold a 1/4" at 100 yards.
The only barrel I've ever replaced was a 22-250 Varmint barrel after about 6-7000 rounds of 55 gr. Nosler's at 3650 fps (and sometimes in rapid sequence at Prairie dogs) and the 6" in front of the chamber was toast.
My opinion is heat and velocity burn out a barrel.
DWalt
Member
This is a ressurection of a 2009 thread, but I will provide a little information. For many years, S&W was apparently horrified by the thought of firing jacketed bullets in their revolvers due to increased barrel wear (of course, there were very few jacketed bullet revolver cartridges available in those days, so there probably wasn't much to worry about). The hot cartridges of the pre-WWII area (the .38-44 and the .357 Magnum) early on did not use full jacketed bullets, but rather metal capped bullets. This was because S&W felt that the bullet bearing surface in the bore should remain lead to preserve barrel life.
During WWII, the use of the .38 Special revolver for military purposes came to pass, and of course, FMJ bullets were a requirement for compliance with the Hague Convention for non-expanding bullet use in combat. So both the British Commonwealth and the US military ordered that military handgun ammunition use FMJ bullets. As a result, in early 1942 S&W changed the steel alloy used for Victory barrels from AISI 1025 to AISI 1045, as the latter was more wear resistant. So I suppose S&W thought it was an important step to take to maintain long barrel life.
I have to assume that modern barrel steels make modern handgun barrels largely immune to wear from jacketed bullets. For sure (because I have personal knowledge) there are many military M9 pistols which have fired hundreds of thousands of FMJ M882 rounds through them in training, with no barrel changes in all that time. Early M9 barrels did have some problems, but they did not involve barrel wear.
During WWII, the use of the .38 Special revolver for military purposes came to pass, and of course, FMJ bullets were a requirement for compliance with the Hague Convention for non-expanding bullet use in combat. So both the British Commonwealth and the US military ordered that military handgun ammunition use FMJ bullets. As a result, in early 1942 S&W changed the steel alloy used for Victory barrels from AISI 1025 to AISI 1045, as the latter was more wear resistant. So I suppose S&W thought it was an important step to take to maintain long barrel life.
I have to assume that modern barrel steels make modern handgun barrels largely immune to wear from jacketed bullets. For sure (because I have personal knowledge) there are many military M9 pistols which have fired hundreds of thousands of FMJ M882 rounds through them in training, with no barrel changes in all that time. Early M9 barrels did have some problems, but they did not involve barrel wear.
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I propose more barrel "wear" is caused by powders than bullets. Notice that the handguns barrels mentioned in this thread as being worn were worse at the frame end than the muzzle. Bullet is traveling fastest at the muzzle people. Hot gasses are blasting the part nearest the chamber. Guys offer get flame cut forcing cones and frames. What makes anybody think it stops at the forcing cone ? Had a 220 swift. Accuracy fell off. Barrels erosion in front of chamber. Muzzle was fine, bullet was moving at 4200 @ muzzle, not at chamber lead. Powder scrubbing. . Which powder you run can have as much or more effect than bullet. Plus I bet it is far more likely that a lubed lead bullet has a bit of dust etc than a dry copper jacket.
S&WIowegan
US Veteran
I'll add some information to my original comment about my 625-2 5" barrel and it's wear. The gun was used extensively in USPSA matches over the course of approx. 15 yrs. Ammunition used was either factory jacketed hardball or comparable handloads. All ammunition was jacketed and subsonic(very modest pressure). I didn't say the barrel was worn out, just that it was losing velocity vs. original performance. This is important to USPSA shooters since we must meet required minimum velocity to maximize scores. The gun I referred to is still serviceable.
We throw around the phrase "worn out" loosely in this thread. What is the definition of "worn out"?
There is a general attitude that revolvers were all made to shoot lead bullets. Interestingly, Model 1917 revolvers were expected to shoot 230 gr hardball when they were produced.
I have no way to respond to barrel/cylinder gap changes since I have no data from when I first took the gun out of the box.
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DWalt
Member
"There is a general attitude that revolvers were all made to shoot lead bullets. Interestingly, Model 1917 revolvers were expected to shoot 230 gr hardball when they were produced."
True enough, but in 1917 there would have been very little experience in firing FMJ bullets in a revolver to know if bore wear would have been a problem or not. I can't think of any military FMJ bullets anywhere being used in revolvers at that time. Of course the German Luger and Mauser pistols were using FMJ bullets, as well as the U. S. M1911, but those were in semiautomatics, and I know nothing about their barrel metallurgy. Every Colt M1917 barrel I have seen has very light rifling. Whether they were made with very shallow grooves or resulted from firing jacked bullets in quantity I have no idea. I also have a 1920s M1911 barrel with its rifling visually in about the same condition.
True enough, but in 1917 there would have been very little experience in firing FMJ bullets in a revolver to know if bore wear would have been a problem or not. I can't think of any military FMJ bullets anywhere being used in revolvers at that time. Of course the German Luger and Mauser pistols were using FMJ bullets, as well as the U. S. M1911, but those were in semiautomatics, and I know nothing about their barrel metallurgy. Every Colt M1917 barrel I have seen has very light rifling. Whether they were made with very shallow grooves or resulted from firing jacked bullets in quantity I have no idea. I also have a 1920s M1911 barrel with its rifling visually in about the same condition.
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Temperature...
I'm winging this, but the temperature in the chamber and barrel comes from two sources. The temperature of the burning of the powder and the thousands of pounds of pressure that it develops. (remember the hot bicycle pump?) Higher pressure loads generate higher temperatures, which surely leads to more rapid erosion.
Fighter plane's machine gun barrels would only be good for a few thousand rounds before they would be burned out. Even in the field with more tame ammunition, machine gun barrels have a short life.
I'm winging this, but the temperature in the chamber and barrel comes from two sources. The temperature of the burning of the powder and the thousands of pounds of pressure that it develops. (remember the hot bicycle pump?) Higher pressure loads generate higher temperatures, which surely leads to more rapid erosion.
Fighter plane's machine gun barrels would only be good for a few thousand rounds before they would be burned out. Even in the field with more tame ammunition, machine gun barrels have a short life.
I have a 686 which has had the forcing cone area roughly doubled in length after quite a bit of competition use using FMJ bullets. Still shoots well enough for DA work.
My various .44s show no signs of wear after many thousands of rounds of swaged lead using powder charges over 20 grains!
My various .44s show no signs of wear after many thousands of rounds of swaged lead using powder charges over 20 grains!
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