Just curious uf you lose some accuracy shooting 38's out of a 357.
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cadmike
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Get to the range and let us know.
USBP SW
Member
I have always thought that there might be a loss of accuracy but the difference would be negligible. I think that other factors would have more of an effect, ammunition, mechanical differences, etc.. What I did notice was shooting quantities of the shorter ammunition without completely cleaning the chambers, prevented inserting the longer rounds. I purchased a used revolver years ago, a .32 H&R magnum, the previous owner shot hundreds of rounds of .32 long, I tried to shoot .32 mag rounds but could not chamber a single round until I had thoroughly cleaned the chambers.
RobertJ.
Member
I think it depends on the gun. My 28-2 is the gun I use to test all my .38 Special ammo, as it's more accurate than any of my .38 handguns.
Green Frog
Member
Many of the Models 19 and 66 go through their whole careers shooting mostly 38 Spl loads without any seeming degradation of accuracy. If you are shooting at a top level of competition, you might see some small difference but for a mere mortal like me, not a difference. From my experiences with them I'd say the answer to your question would be, "Don't worry about it!"
Froggie
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John Patrick
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Whether it's me or the guns, I don't know, but I don't see a difference.
I enjoy shooting 38spl wadcutters out of my 357s. Both recoil wise and for the perfect round holes in paper.
I'm not religious about cleaning my guns after I shoot, other than a wipe down, but I've never run into the issue of so much fouling that loading 357 after shooting a bunch of wadcutters is difficult. But I believe I've noticed 357 cases hanging up on ejection on short rod revolvers, like 2 1/2" K frames because the cylinders needed cleaning.
I enjoy shooting 38spl wadcutters out of my 357s. Both recoil wise and for the perfect round holes in paper.
I'm not religious about cleaning my guns after I shoot, other than a wipe down, but I've never run into the issue of so much fouling that loading 357 after shooting a bunch of wadcutters is difficult. But I believe I've noticed 357 cases hanging up on ejection on short rod revolvers, like 2 1/2" K frames because the cylinders needed cleaning.
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THE PILGRIM
Member
Haven't seen much of a difference.
Have fired thousands of 38s mostly in 19s, 66s, and 27s.
And some in Rugers.
Have fired thousands of 38s mostly in 19s, 66s, and 27s.
And some in Rugers.
I kind of did that experiment when fiddling with a Smolt 357 I had built and my home built Ransom Rest and could not tell any difference in group size between 38 and 357s, with both firing the same 158 gr lead SWC bullets. Both shot very well. Maybe with short 110 gr bullets, but because there is only 1/8" difference in case length, with most bullets you have a lot of full caliber bullet well into the throat before the bullet base leaves the case. No chance for misalignment there and no chance for pressure blow by.
Some guns will prefer one ammo over another, but I believe that is more a case of ammo quality and bullet selection than anything else including case length.
Some guns will prefer one ammo over another, but I believe that is more a case of ammo quality and bullet selection than anything else including case length.
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Electraclyde
Member
My experience with 686, 66, and Colt King Cobra Target is that the accuracy is better with .38 special than .357 magnum. I have alway found that the slower moving rounds of any caliber were more accurate than the faster rounds.
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Not that I have noticed but I have shot a lot more 38s out of 357 revolvers than 38 revolvers.
There is enough variation in accuracy gun to gun than that it is hard to tell. If a 38 revolver shoots your favorite 148 grain wadcutter more accurately is it because it was specifically built for the slightly shorter cartridge or is it because it was a better made revolver?
There is enough variation in accuracy gun to gun than that it is hard to tell. If a 38 revolver shoots your favorite 148 grain wadcutter more accurately is it because it was specifically built for the slightly shorter cartridge or is it because it was a better made revolver?
Hair Trigger
US Veteran
The only thing I notice between shooting .38 Spl and .357M is the change in POI from POA as distance to target increases. I may get a larger group at distance with .38 than I do with .357, but I wouldn't call it less accurate.
Theoretically that 1/10 inch bullet jump can-may-should lead to some incredibly small decrease in accuracy. Most people could not detect it I expect. I get around it by rolling my own and loading target loads into .357 cases. Makes the chambers easier to clean too.
I haven't noticed any. I like the reduced recoil in my model 19 however. Sometimes I just load .357 cases with a different powder, but I really need another powder to do that. 4.5 grains of fast shotgun powder doesn't work very well. Too easy to double charge a case.
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JOB 1: Define accuracy----practical accuracy-----ultimate accuracy?
I'm an ultimate accuracy sort---bought a machine rest to develop my handloads. That taught me that accuracy is ALL about the bullet emerging from the bore in as pristine condition as possible. NOTHING else matters enough to talk about.
So---Specials from a Magnum?
Obstacle #1: The shoulder in the chamber---what, 1/10"-1/8" in front of the case mouth? That causes damage---a little or a lot.
Obstacle #2: The increased throat length in the magnum chamber. That gives the bullet more distance in which to accelerate before it gets to the barrel. That translates to more skidding and sliding before the rifling gets a hold of it---more damage---a little or a lot.
A case on point: I did a throat length test---how important is it---really?
The gun: A Ruger Old Army---cap & ball---black powder.
The load: 20 grains of fff (measured, not weighed), an Uncle Mikes Hotshot Lubed Wad, a Speer .457" round ball, and some other stuff we'll get to directly.
The set-up: Seated, two hand hold, with a rest. (The machine rest is long gone.)
The range: 25 Yards
The above load seats DEEP within the chamber---maximum throat length.
The result: 6 rounds in 4".
The next load was the same as the first---plus 20 grains of corn meal added between the wad and the bullet. The ball is now seated flush with the end of the chamber----damn near ZERO throat.
The result: 6 rounds in one ragged hole completely covered with a quarter (As in ULTIMATE accuracy).
Additional loads with 5, 10, and 15 grains of corn meal produced groups almost linear in size between the first two.
Bottom Line: Specials from Magnums is fine if you're satisfied with practical accuracy. Forget about it if you're a real shooter!
And for all those who claim to shoot better with Specials in their Magnums, give some thought to working on your flinch.
Ralph Tremaine
And by the by, my record for 6 rounds at 100 yards with two different guns (Ruger Blackhawk and S&W .44 Magnum, 6.5" and 8 3/8" barrels respectively) with the same reduced loads (18.5 grains of 2400 behind a 205 grain SWC with a gas check in Magnum cases) is 4"---seated, two hand hold, with a rest.
I'm an ultimate accuracy sort---bought a machine rest to develop my handloads. That taught me that accuracy is ALL about the bullet emerging from the bore in as pristine condition as possible. NOTHING else matters enough to talk about.
So---Specials from a Magnum?
Obstacle #1: The shoulder in the chamber---what, 1/10"-1/8" in front of the case mouth? That causes damage---a little or a lot.
Obstacle #2: The increased throat length in the magnum chamber. That gives the bullet more distance in which to accelerate before it gets to the barrel. That translates to more skidding and sliding before the rifling gets a hold of it---more damage---a little or a lot.
A case on point: I did a throat length test---how important is it---really?
The gun: A Ruger Old Army---cap & ball---black powder.
The load: 20 grains of fff (measured, not weighed), an Uncle Mikes Hotshot Lubed Wad, a Speer .457" round ball, and some other stuff we'll get to directly.
The set-up: Seated, two hand hold, with a rest. (The machine rest is long gone.)
The range: 25 Yards
The above load seats DEEP within the chamber---maximum throat length.
The result: 6 rounds in 4".
The next load was the same as the first---plus 20 grains of corn meal added between the wad and the bullet. The ball is now seated flush with the end of the chamber----damn near ZERO throat.
The result: 6 rounds in one ragged hole completely covered with a quarter (As in ULTIMATE accuracy).
Additional loads with 5, 10, and 15 grains of corn meal produced groups almost linear in size between the first two.
Bottom Line: Specials from Magnums is fine if you're satisfied with practical accuracy. Forget about it if you're a real shooter!
And for all those who claim to shoot better with Specials in their Magnums, give some thought to working on your flinch.
Ralph Tremaine
And by the by, my record for 6 rounds at 100 yards with two different guns (Ruger Blackhawk and S&W .44 Magnum, 6.5" and 8 3/8" barrels respectively) with the same reduced loads (18.5 grains of 2400 behind a 205 grain SWC with a gas check in Magnum cases) is 4"---seated, two hand hold, with a rest.
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I haven't enjoyed shooting .357 out of either my 686 or any of my K frames for a very long time. The 686 is the only one that continues to see magnums every once in a while as I carry it when out and about in the Colorado high country and want to be proficient with it.
I also haven't seen any worse accuracy with the factory .38 loads I routinely run through them.
I also haven't seen any worse accuracy with the factory .38 loads I routinely run through them.
I don't have a lot of accuracy so I can't be sure. I usually get better groups shooting 357 but I've always figured it is because of the increased speed of the bullet. It leaves the gun before I have too much opportunity to screw up.
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I would love to be even remotely enough of an expert handgunner to have to even give this a passing thought. In my case, accuracy of the firearm and ammo are the least of my concerns — they're all more accurate than I am.
If there is I sure can't tell any difference.
Of course I can't tell much difference between shooting and throwing rocks.
Of course I can't tell much difference between shooting and throwing rocks.
GypsmJim
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I shoot 38 indoor and 357 outdoor using the same gun. No need to change the sights and no perceived difference in accuracy. I said "perceived".
No Ransom Rest, no chrono, no Bullseye match. Just me out having a fun afternoon.
No Ransom Rest, no chrono, no Bullseye match. Just me out having a fun afternoon.
Back in the 70s & 80s I was a serious PPC shooter. Rather than tie up a bunch of money in a space gun I made my own competition piece. (new Pac grips, white outline sight, a trigger/action job by me)
I bought a new Model 28 6'' and only fired .38s till I was done competing. I found my accuracy very sufficient.
My PPC load was lead .38 semiwad-cutter 158 grain and I fired many thousands of rounds out of it. I went semiwadcutter as it made it much easier to use the speed loader for a quick refresh.
After I stopped PPC I fired serious .357 loads out of it and had no problem with inserting the longer cartridge. Accuracy with .357 power was also very good!
I bought a new Model 28 6'' and only fired .38s till I was done competing. I found my accuracy very sufficient.
My PPC load was lead .38 semiwad-cutter 158 grain and I fired many thousands of rounds out of it. I went semiwadcutter as it made it much easier to use the speed loader for a quick refresh.
After I stopped PPC I fired serious .357 loads out of it and had no problem with inserting the longer cartridge. Accuracy with .357 power was also very good!
Have a look at this interesting test. It was made by an ISSF precision pistol competitor in Sweden.
This is the 38 Special segment. It compares a S&W 14, a 586, a 686, and a Colt Python. Of course, you all know that only one of these revolvers is a 38 Special, the others being .357 Magnum.
All ammo is 38 Special factory loads.
You can see for yourself the chart that has a photo of each target for each gun/ammo combination!
Ammunitionstest av .38 Special i Vapentidningen nr 4 2006.
The groups are all fired off-hand at 25 meters.
The groups were all fired for group size comparison; guns were not sighted in on a load-by-load basis.
You can draw your own conclusions.
But, obviously, at least this one competitor doesn't feel there is any inherent loss of accuracy using 38s in a 357, even for precision competitive shooting.
PS: There are three other segments of the test, one for 22 LR, one for 32 S&W and one for 9mm. Each of those is listed as their own "url", (not included here).
This is the 38 Special segment. It compares a S&W 14, a 586, a 686, and a Colt Python. Of course, you all know that only one of these revolvers is a 38 Special, the others being .357 Magnum.
All ammo is 38 Special factory loads.
You can see for yourself the chart that has a photo of each target for each gun/ammo combination!
Ammunitionstest av .38 Special i Vapentidningen nr 4 2006.
The groups are all fired off-hand at 25 meters.
The groups were all fired for group size comparison; guns were not sighted in on a load-by-load basis.
You can draw your own conclusions.
But, obviously, at least this one competitor doesn't feel there is any inherent loss of accuracy using 38s in a 357, even for precision competitive shooting.
PS: There are three other segments of the test, one for 22 LR, one for 32 S&W and one for 9mm. Each of those is listed as their own "url", (not included here).
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Amp
Member
In theory there is a difference. In my hand there is not.
I think it's a terrific question. There are some things where I agree we could test our own stuff and come to strong, solid conclusions but I also think there is a lot of value in seeing what some industry professionals do and have done.
If you gathered up two dozen different PPC revolvers built from the 70's and 80's from the finest names in the history of PPC guns, you will find that (by far!) the bulk of them are S&W K-frames and the bulk of the S&W K-frame builds were done on .38 Special guns.
To go further:
With that said, Ron Power built many of his PPC guns on the Model 19 — however it's worth noting that Power also recommended that his PPC builds on the K-frame Magnum not be used with .357 Magnum.
I'm fortunate to own two different Bill Davis PPC guns and my Cougar (Python barrel mated with a Ruger Police Service Six) is chambered for .357 while my Davis built on a K-frame was made from a 10-7.
What's my conclusion? I think if there is an accuracy edge, it isn't enough for the legendary custom revolversmiths to care enough about across the board for their builds.
If you gathered up two dozen different PPC revolvers built from the 70's and 80's from the finest names in the history of PPC guns, you will find that (by far!) the bulk of them are S&W K-frames and the bulk of the S&W K-frame builds were done on .38 Special guns.
To go further:
…maybe, but I believe the 14 was chosen more for the options available especially with regards to the Patridge front sight. The bulk of custom PPC guns were typically made on the Model 10/15 and 64.
With that said, Ron Power built many of his PPC guns on the Model 19 — however it's worth noting that Power also recommended that his PPC builds on the K-frame Magnum not be used with .357 Magnum.
I'm fortunate to own two different Bill Davis PPC guns and my Cougar (Python barrel mated with a Ruger Police Service Six) is chambered for .357 while my Davis built on a K-frame was made from a 10-7.
What's my conclusion? I think if there is an accuracy edge, it isn't enough for the legendary custom revolversmiths to care enough about across the board for their builds.
Protocall_Design
Vendor
I built a 686 Bianchi Open Revolver. It has the original 357 cylinder. In a Ransom rest, my 38 Special Bianchi loads shoot 3/8" groups at 25 yards and a little over an inch at 50 yards. I doubt if any 357 loads could do better.
That is a very accurate revolver. Period.
Back in the 70s, Ron Power had a set up at the PPC Nationals in Jackson, MS every year that I went. One year he displayed a K38 with the cylinder shortened so that it just chambered a .38 wadcutter cartridge, with the barrel extension fit with a small gap. He told me there was no practical improvement in accuracy between the custom gun and a normal setup. I figured he knew more about it than I did, so I kinda lost interest at that point, and I don't think he built very many after that. It was several years later that the Grand Master was produced, and if I recall, they were on L frame guns with .357 cylinders. I was never fortunate to have one as I was no longer competing in PPC.
Green Frog
Member
Just to add to the discussion, the late Fred Schmidt of Mechanicsville, VA used to build top shelf PPC revolvers. Among other features he shortened the cylinders to the length of flush seated wadcutter rounds. Then he made special, custom barrels whose tenons would extend through the frame so the throat was back to the face of the cylinder, leaving minimum B/C gap. His theory was that if the bullet entered the forcing cone before it completely left the cartridge case, it would be a step toward maximum accuracy. He did a whole bunch of other things too, and when all was said and done, his guns shot super competitively.
So, does a short round in a long chamber cost you accuracy? I can't prove it from my feeble efforts at hand gunning, but Fred sure thought so!
Froggie
So, does a short round in a long chamber cost you accuracy? I can't prove it from my feeble efforts at hand gunning, but Fred sure thought so!
Froggie
Green Frog
Member
PS to last: I guess I ought to mention that I shoot 32 S&W "Longs" in my custom chambered K327 (Project 616) but that is casual shooting in the extreme!
Froggie
Froggie
Pisgah
Member
Yes, no and maybe. Take your pick because it'll be different for every gun and every load.
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