Knowledge, the most powerful tool when carrying concealed

[Ytcoinshooter]

I just ordered "The Law of Self Defense" by Andrew Branca. Surely most here are familiar with or have heard of this book. Some good podcasts are available too. I've been doing research on the laws of my state, the application of deadly force, duty to retreat, instructions to the jury regarding claim of self defense disqualifiers and much more. Within the borders of my home state the duty to retreat has to be understood. The castle doctrine is clearer to the average reader.
Criminal Jury Instructions 2.8-3
I really enjoy my range time and learning the different firearms I'm exposed to. Some of my closest friends have large collections of handguns and long arms. The weight and responsibility of of a permitted person carrying is very serious to me. Myself, my ability to retreat is somewhat impeded by my two hip replacements and other physical issues and surgeries. I don't appear infirm, quite contrary but I work hard at retaining the abilities I'm still blessed with.
We also own property in Florida and we have received our packets for our permits. I enjoy reading these threads, always in the knowledge that there so much more to be aware of.

 

[ameridaddy]

...The weight and responsibility of of a permitted person carrying is very serious to me. ...

AMEN, brother.
It's similar to the judge swearing you for jury duty; the fact slams home that you have the power to decide the rest of someone's life, so pay attention. This is for real.
I feel the same way every time I leave home armed.

I've been thinking about getting one of Branco's books for Virginia. Let us know how you feel about the book after you've read it and digested it.

 

[Ransom]

Bronco is excellent. I read his blog and follow his website, Legal Insurrection. This book is on my wish list.

...you have the power to decide the rest of someone's life...

I get what you are saying, but I prefer to think of it as their decision.

 

[Rastoff]

What county and city do you live in? There might be hope.

The OP is correct, knowledge is the most powerful tool in your kit.

 

[JCFindley]

This is simply an outstanding resource if you live in FL.

Florida Firearms - Law, Use & Ownership: Eighth Edition
(Complete Including All Chapters)
by Jon H. Gutmacher

If you carry in FL I would go so far as say it is a must though I know for a fact most of my friends that have a gun and even carry have no use for the details of the laws.

 

[Jessie]

You know, I understand the need to know your laws in your jurisdiction.
I don't understand why, though.
What I mean is why is it so hard to determine what you can do based on where you are at?
What happened to common sense law abiding citizen self defense?
I kind of like the thinking of the 1800's west....If you try to rob me or kill me or a friend of mine, I can legally shoot you. End of story. If you don't want to be shot, don't threaten my life.
I guess I'm just a dinosaur.

 

[Rustyt1953]

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L-hkKmhssSU[/ame]

 

[steelslaver]

I kind of like the thinking of the 1800's west....If you try to rob me or kill me or a friend of mine, I can legally shoot you. End of story. If you don't want to be shot, don't threaten my life.
I guess I'm just a dinosaur.

Right around here not much has changed since then. Lots of dinosaurs to. I am sure some of them would be on the jury, and some of the judges might have some firmly held frontier beliefs.

I was once at a trial where the prosecutor brought up the fact that the accused was a trapper and killed helpless animals yada yada yada. During a recess for something with the jury still in the box the judge brought up the art work on the walls of the court room and then the painting of the trapper and how he admired them for they way they lived and how they where the ones that explored the local area first. Thought it was an interesting way of letting his opinion be known. I truly believe an innocent man got a fair shake in his court that time. When the jury deadlocked at 11 innocent 1 guilty and it turned out the guilty voter had lied at devour, the prosecutor wanted to hold the guy in jail while he decide whether to bring a new trial, the judge said no, this has gone on long enough, he walks out of here now while you can think long and hard on a retrial.

The defendant was my brother and his ex-wife later admitted to the court she lied.

 

[JCFindley]

You know, I understand the need to know your laws in your jurisdiction.
I don't understand why, though.
What I mean is why is it so hard to determine what you can do based on where you are at?
What happened to common sense law abiding citizen self defense?
I kind of like the thinking of the 1800's west....If you try to rob me or kill me or a friend of mine, I can legally shoot you. End of story. If you don't want to be shot, don't threaten my life.
I guess I'm just a dinosaur.

If only it were that simple.

I think common sense will keep you on the right side of the law more often than. But laws are written by politicians who often seem to be lacking common sense and knowing the intricacies might be the difference between going to jail or prison and going home after an SD incident.

A few examples in FL that are counter intuitive. You can carry a pistol on your person in the national or state forest if you are hunting, fishing or camping but it must be concealed there even without a CWL unless of course you are using it for hunting. You can carry in your car without a CWL as long as it is secured. Secured can be as simple as in a snapped holster or in a purse. Don't carry that purse out of the car though unless you have the CWL. You have immunity from prosecution if someone forces their way into your house. Opening an unlocked door is force. Walking through an open door is not. I can't have a gun in a post office as that is a federal building. What is counter intuitive is I cannot have one in the post office parking lot either.

There are bizarre rules in many if not most states that do not really follow common sense. Knowing what is and isn't legal can be critically important.

 

[AlHunt]

Unfortunately for me I live in California where the local Sherif refuses to sign concealed carry permits. I recently bought a handgun with the intention of obtaining a concealed carry permit. Should have done more research. I have a family to protect now and think it **** that I basically have to break the law to do so when I otherwise wouldn't if obtaining a permit were possible. I know for a fact the people I am trying to protect myself against arnt worried if they have a permit or not. Why should I then be to protect myself from those people. Let me be a law abiding citizen that want to protect my family not a law breaking one for the same reason.

End rant.

Does CA have reciprocity with some other state where you could obtain a permit? I'd imagine they've already legislated against that kind of end run, but who knows ...

 

[Jessie]

JCFindley, you re-inforced my point better than I could have.
It's unfortunate that it is today's world and I agree that its smart to have knowlege( no pun intended)

 

[Itoughttobeeasy]

Jessie,
Unfortunately, common sense is not "legal sense" and is unfortunately not very widely used. I suspect that once you use a firearm in defense of yourself or another, your life will change. First, from the regret you used deadly force, but mainly because "the system" is geared to treat you as a criminal. And even if "the system" decides not to convict you, the thug who caused the problem in the first place will find a lawyer willing to work on a percentage basis, paint you as a threat to society, and take your hard hard-earned money (requiring you to pay both the thug and the lawyer).

 

[Rastoff]

If you try to ..... kill me or a friend of mine, I can legally shoot you. End of story. If you don't want to be shot, don't threaten my life.

Use of deadly force to counter this kind of threat is legal in every state in the nation. It's up to the DA whether or not they want to charge you with some crime for carrying the gun illegally.

Does CA have reciprocity with some other state where you could obtain a permit?

Nope. CA does not honor CCW licenses from any other state.

 

[Jessie]

Rastoff, Its legal IF the DA interprets it so. Could you have escaped?(required in some states) and many other complicating factors state by state. That's the problem.
And as previously mentioned, there is the civil mine field you'll more than likely have to cross even if its a legitimate SD shooting.
That's all I'm trying to say. Things are way too complicated, convoluted and varying depending on jurisdiction.
Especially when the antagonist started it all to begin with.

 

[Rastoff]

I hear you Jessie and understand what you mean. The law is indeed overly complicated.

Even so, I stand by what I said. If the situation meets three criteria, you can use whatever force necessary to combat great bodily injury or death.

• The threat must be immediate.
• The assailant must have the ability.
• The assailant must have the opportunity.

This is not how the law reads in different states, but the concept is valid and will stand up in court.

However, you make a good point. If you had an opportunity to get away, was the threat really immediate? We could go round and round with this, but what's the point? The point I'm making is, if you're really in danger of great bodily injury or death, you'll be found justified in defending yourself with deadly force; even if you broke another law in the process.

 

[Ytcoinshooter]

Fantastic, a must read book if you are reading this forum

I received the Law of Self Defense on Friday and have just finished it. I'm going to reread it and keep it for reference. I'm going to consider some training at a leading facility minutes from my home. It's a 360° tactical theater that is used by LEO's and private citizens. I've been there once for a very basic class. As for the book, there are IMHO principals that need to be understood before stepping out of the house with a concealed firearm. This work is an eye opener and written for the "Everyman" (or woman) in clear language with cases that illuminate the points being presented. I find myself repeating passages to commit some to memory. This book should be required reading with a short quiz for any permit seeker. Some would say that is over regulating. I submit that it is essential, CYA knowledge.
I live in a highly regulated state that is forever changed by the Sandy Hook horror. We have high profile politicians, some I've met while I was working for the state. I disagree with many of thier stances (posturing) on gun control but it is clear they were reactionary to satisfy the "something has to be done" mentality that has permeated the populous after each of the recent horrors inflicted on innocent lives. Yeah, this is a blue state, "duty to retreat" state laced with so much nannyism.
This is an unsafe world but no criminal will be infringed upon by legislation, only the law abiding...but ****, I'm preaching to the choir here.
Get the book, read it, share it and dig into the nuances of the laws of your state. I loved it and couldn't put it down.

 

[JCFindley]

Here is an interesting factoid from FL.

In addition to any other firearm approved by the department, licensee who has been issued a Class "G" license may carry a .38 caliber revolver; or a .380 caliber or 9 millimeter semiautomatic pistol; or a .357 caliber revolver with .38 caliber ammunition only; or a .40 caliber handgun; or a .45 ACP handgun while performing duties authorized under this chapter.

So, if you are carrying a handgun as part of your duties and are not a deputized LEO you cannot carry a 357 magnum with full up magnum rounds but can carry 38 specs in your 686. You can carry a 45 or a 40 but not a 357 sig.

That is not logical at all and can get you in a world of trouble if you think you are just doing your job and put the wrong bullets in your wheel gun.

 

[two-bit cowboy]

Here is an interesting factoid from FL.

In addition to any other firearm approved by the department, licensee who has been issued a Class "G" license may carry a .38 caliber revolver; or a .380 caliber or 9 millimeter semiautomatic pistol; or a .357 caliber revolver with .38 caliber ammunition only; or a .40 caliber handgun; or a .45 ACP handgun while performing duties authorized under this chapter.

So, if you are carrying a handgun as part of your duties and are not a deputized LEO you cannot carry a 357 magnum with full up magnum rounds but can carry 38 specs in your 686. You can carry a 45 or a 40 but not a 357 sig.

That is not logical at all and can get you in a world of trouble if you think you are just doing your job and put the wrong bullets in your wheel gun.

Appears to have been authored by a committee of folks who don't know the differences between the calibers and didn't have the commitment to the public good to seek out the counsel of somebody who does. I'm ever amazed how this type of language gets by those legislators who do know the difference.

But no restriction on BGs loading .357 magnums into their weapons, right?

 

[rwsmith]

It is good.....

It is good to know the laws in your state, especially if they are as complicated as in some states. II'm glad that I live in SC, where I can use a Ma Deuce if somebody breaks into my home.

 

[JCFindley]

Appears to have been authored by a committee of folks who don't know the differences between the calibers and didn't have the commitment to the public good to seek out the counsel of somebody who does. I'm ever amazed how this type of language gets by those legislators who do know the difference.

But no restriction on BGs loading .357 magnums into their weapons, right?

Or Good Guys so long as they are not carrying as part of their job. (LEOs excluded of course.) I could carry a 357 loaded with magnum rounds as a private citizen but not as a security guard or PI.